Correct to fold AA preflop?

[papa_georgio]

I was playing in a 10+1 SnG yesterday and all players were about evenly stacked at the bubble and it was taking for ever. I was small blind and was eventually dealt AA, the UTG went all in, and the dealer also went all in. I figured that I would probably win, but I didn't want to risk it, I also knew that one of them was about to be either knocked out this hand or have a severely crippled chipstack and I decided to fold so that I could guarantee a money finish. Was that a smart play or a really weak play? Any and all feedback/flaming is welcome.

[four eight suited]

In a $10 tourney there is no way I am laying this down. I understand that you might not want to push small edges early in the tourney but this edge wont be small at all. Maybe, the first hand of the WSOP and somehow two people managed to get all in in front of me holding AA, MAYBE.

[ilya]

horrible fold. never fold AA preflop. forget the exceptions.

[ilya]

[ QUOTE ]
Maybe, the first hand of the WSOP and somehow two people managed to get all in in front of me holding AA, MAYBE.

[/ QUOTE ]

No. That would be atrocious.

[EdgePort]

[ QUOTE ]
horrible fold. never fold AA preflop. forget the exceptions.

[/ QUOTE ]

What he said...

[Degen]

ditto

i posted a hand (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=2057871&page=&view=&s b=5&o=) I played early on in a 33 when 3 ppl were all-in in front of me and i wanted to fold, but here even its a horrible fold.


never muck PF is the common logic, and for the life of me i can't find a suitable argument to the contrary...and beleive me, if there were an excuse for me to fold them...i'd do it with a smile.


Degen

[strelok]

You folded AA in a 10+1?? /images/graemlins/confused.gif Unless you are psychic that was really stupid.

Come on dude, grow some balls... as the guy before me said this isn't the first hand of WSOP. I think this is weak and sooooo results oriented.

[Degen]

ditto again...you shouldn't be playing to make $9 for third..you should be play for the (whopping!) $39 for first. and then you should be playing to move up to the 33's because its the same damned game with a few less fish.


Degen

[citanul]

meh, don't forget the exceptions. just don't ask what they are. go use the search function, and look up some canonical list of every time in any type of tournament where it's ok to fold AA preflop.

citanul

[papa_georgio]

Yeah, I was afraid it was a weak play. I would have won the hand, and with that kind of chip stack I would have almost certainly won the whole thing. Oh well, live and learn.

[kyro]

So, how long have you been ball-less? You know, without balls. What I'm trying to say is, when did you become a [censored] woman?

[citanul]

yep, that's basically why it is that you basically never fold aa preflop.

just whenever you think about doing it, remind yourself of the concept of "first place equity"

citanul

[papa_georgio]

[ QUOTE ]
So, how long have you been ball-less? You know, without balls. What I'm trying to say is, when did you become a [censored] woman?

[/ QUOTE ]
these are just the sort of replys that put me on the right track. thanks for the tough love.

[citanul]

wow, if you liked that, you're going to LOVE my replies from now on.

citanul

[papa_georgio]

[ QUOTE ]
wow, if you liked that, you're going to LOVE my replies from now on.

citanul

[/ QUOTE ]

lol! I can own up to stupid mistakes.

[four eight suited]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Maybe, the first hand of the WSOP and somehow two people managed to get all in in front of me holding AA, MAYBE.

[/ QUOTE ]

No. That would be atrocious.

[/ QUOTE ]


If you think you have any skill at all you can easily fold the first hand at the WSOP. There is no reason to risk you whole stack on the first hand with the blinds structure. You start with 10,000 chips and the blinds are only 25-50 to start. That would be like somebody raise $1000 preflop in a 2-5 game that is just obsurd. You cannot win the tournament on the first hand, there is no need to try. Take a look at tournament poker for advanced players, this might give you some further insight.

[four eight suited]

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah, I was afraid it was a weak play. I would have won the hand, and with that kind of chip stack I would have almost certainly won the whole thing. Oh well, live and learn.

[/ QUOTE ]


call would be the right play but your post is a little results oriented right

[Paul2432]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Maybe, the first hand of the WSOP and somehow two people managed to get all in in front of me holding AA, MAYBE.

[/ QUOTE ]

No. That would be atrocious.

[/ QUOTE ]


If you think you have any skill at all you can easily fold the first hand at the WSOP. There is no reason to risk you whole stack on the first hand with the blinds structure. You start with 10,000 chips and the blinds are only 25-50 to start. That would be like somebody raise $1000 preflop in a 2-5 game that is just obsurd. You cannot win the tournament on the first hand, there is no need to try. Take a look at tournament poker for advanced players, this might give you some further insight.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would think having an excellent chance to triple my stack would be a very good reason to risk my stack. Even a world class player will on average triple his starting stack less often then you would win this hand.

Paul

[TruFloridaGator]

Hmm, 2 players make it to the WSOP and get all in front of you without AA? With the blind structure, it doesn't seem likely their getting all their chips in on even with AA preflop. If anything it seems like one would be calling a raise to trap someone.

[hummusx]

We need a sticky at the top of the forum that says:

Never fold aces PF (nt)

[four eight suited]

[ QUOTE ]
Hmm, 2 players make it to the WSOP and get all in front of you without AA? With the blind structure, it doesn't seem likely their getting all their chips in on even with AA preflop. If anything it seems like one would be calling a raise to trap someone.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. It was a rediculous hypothetical to try an illuminate one time folding AA would be correct. The likelihood of this happening is a pretty huge longshot.

[four eight suited]

[ QUOTE ]

I would think having an excellent chance to triple my stack would be a very good reason to risk my stack. Even a world class player will on average triple his starting stack less often then you would win this hand.

Paul

[/ QUOTE ]


A world class player would know that you dont need to triple your stack in the first hand or even on the first day to have a shot at winning the tournament. The day 1 chipleader is rarely even at the final table, much less the winner. I dont know about Raymer, I know he had a big stack early, but other than him. Sklansky makes this assertion is his TPFAP

[citanul]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

I would think having an excellent chance to triple my stack would be a very good reason to risk my stack. Even a world class player will on average triple his starting stack less often then you would win this hand.

Paul

[/ QUOTE ]


A world class player would know that you dont need to triple your stack in the first hand or even on the first day to have a shot at winning the tournament. The day 1 chipleader is rarely even at the final table, much less the winner. I dont know about Raymer, I know he had a big stack early, but other than him. Sklansky makes this assertion is his TPFAP

[/ QUOTE ]

My word this is freaking terrible. Stop posting in this thread and do some searches in this forum, the WPT forum, and the MTT forum, or buy TPFAP or something. Your logic sucks. Sklansky does NOT make this assertion, read it again.

A world class player, particularly Raymer I believe, would call in a shot. You don't pass up situations as good as this one for stupid reasons. Let me pull apart your logic in one sentence:

The day 1 chip leader doesn't win the tournament because the day 1 chip leader is almost ALWAYS a gambooling moron who has gotten lucky.

A good player will take good spots to get all their chips in, if they lose go home and be OK with it. A bad player will take good spots to get their chips in sometimes, and bad times too, and well, poker has luck involved, so out of a large field, some bad player who did stupid stuff generally winds up with a lot of chips because they are all in more frequently than the good players.

The next SNG faq will have a link or section on folding aces preflop. This is because well, people make silly posts about it from time to time and then people come out of the woodwork defending it in random situations that are not the original one, usually incorrectly.

Here's a general rule for ALL tournaments though, which is only probably slightly wrong. Never fold aces preflop far from the money. It is ONLY prize structure implications which ever make it worthwhile. There is no number of players all in on the first hand of a major tournament that should make you fold preflop.

citanul

[etgryphon]

Sklansky makes this assertion for small edges early in tournaments. AA PF with two allin is not a small edge. Its a big edge. This is not a situation where you would fold AA PF.

The only situation were it would be correct to fold AA PF is this:

Sat. Tourny where the top 7 spots pay the<font color="red"> SAME</font> prize ( i.e. one seat, 10k whatever) and there are 8 people left and 8th gets nothing. You are in Late position and two or more people are Allin in front of you. NOW and only now, it would be correct to fold AA Preflop.

-Gryph

[citanul]

good [censored] lord. that is clearly not the "only" situation where it is correct. please people stop putting in more crap about when you think it's right ot fold aces preflop. anyone who's even vaguely interested in it can find one of the 2000 posts where this topic has been beaten to death.

citanul

[splashpot]

I read somewhere that the only time to correctly fold AA preflop is in a satalite situation where the top few spots offer the same prize. Usually entry into another tourny.

For example, all payouts are equal. Top 3 people win entry to another tourny. 9 people go all in. In this situation, it is correct to fold.

[citanul]

die a painful death.

citanul

[etgryphon]

Jeez Cit,

It was a hyperbole post...It contains all the principles that need to be thought about if you are THINKING about folding AA preflop. My post was just to state the only time it is CLEARLY correct to fold PF without really thinking about it.

Don't lump me in with people who post crap situations.

-Gryph

[pooh74]

wow

[Nottom]

If you replace "we were all evenly stacked" with "they were all evenly stacked and I had 1 chip." Then folding AA would be correct.

[FlipPoker]

Against KK and QQ, you're only a 66% favorite. Easy fold in my book. Who wants to triple up anyway? /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[citanul]

haha, i just checked back here and i see "wow" and it's been editted. i'm hesitant to ask what it said before.

citanul

[Sam T.]

No, never. I don't even need to read the post.

Can we set up a macro that deletes all posts with "AA" and "fold pre-flop" in them?

[pooh74]

I went on a "citanul" style tiraid and then later realized I had misread 48s's post...in any regard, the OP's fold was horrible, and laying down AA the first hand of the WSOP is horrible...its all horrible.

But, yeah, lol...it started off "wow, this thread is a piece of work........etc......."

cut it back to just "wow"

[FlipPoker]

How about in a satellite where the top 15 spots win an equal prize (like a buy-in to a bigger tournament)? If there were 16 players left and two players went all-in, would you fold then?

[TruFloridaGator]

[ QUOTE ]
Sklansky makes this assertion for small edges early in tournaments. AA PF with two allin is not a small edge. Its a big edge. This is not a situation where you would fold AA PF.

The only situation were it would be correct to fold AA PF is this:

Sat. Tourny where the top 7 spots pay the<font color="red"> SAME</font> prize ( i.e. one seat, 10k whatever) and there are 8 people left and 8th gets nothing. You are in Late position and two or more people are Allin in front of you. NOW and only now, it would be correct to fold AA Preflop.

-Gryph

[/ QUOTE ]

Not me, I'm trying to win, but good point nonetheless.

[TruFloridaGator]

I don't think it would be a bad thing to have the ever in depth "I'm never folding rockets in my life" philosophy.

I'm not folding AA ever!

[etgryphon]

Thanks for making a helpful post.

Cit, take notes...

But, I do understand the frustration there are a lot of these posts. I think it is the new patternmapper type post. A rumor that is so *believable* that people try to apply it to their situation so they can make a "great" laydown. I think one of us should take the time to write a decent, non-condescending post that put all the factors in perspective and why it is such. Then, when someone post a "fold preflop AA" post one of us can kindly and gentle link to the post.

-Gryph

[Unarmed]

Honestly, I don't know how every fold AA thread gets to 50 posts. Here's an idea:

Take the amount of time you spend dreaming up sitations to fold AA PF and spend it on a poker topic that you'll actually encounter more than once your entire life.

Like this for example:

Correct to fold AA ever? (on any street)

Note: this question applies to Party SNGs at $5-$33 buy-in against opponents whose typical mistakes include overvaluing their hands and running idiotic bluffs.

There, all of you go meditate over that for awhile.

[pooh74]

what about if someone threatened to kill your puppy unless you laid down AA PF?

[Unarmed]

[ QUOTE ]
How about in a satellite where the top 15 spots win an equal prize (like a buy-in to a bigger tournament)? If there were 16 players left and two players went all-in, would you fold then?

[/ QUOTE ]

How about when you're playing against the mafia, and a guy goes all-in and sticks a gun down your throat and says, "Call and I'll blow your f*cking head off" Do you fold aces then?

How about you're playing against Jessica Alba heads up, she's dressed as she is in my avatar, and she randomly says, "I love a guy that'll muck aces face up" Do you fold then?

How about your name is Tommy Angelo and you fold aces in a ring game and then write a funny story about it? Do you fold then. Well ok...one time.

[etgryphon]

[ QUOTE ]
what about if someone threatened to kill your puppy unless you laid down AA PF?

[/ QUOTE ]

What kind of puppy?

-Gryph

[Unarmed]

[ QUOTE ]
what about if someone threatened to kill your puppy unless you laid down AA PF?

[/ QUOTE ]

What if Citanul is standing beside you and he'll kill you if you fold. Do you sacrifice your life for that of your puppy?

[FlipPoker]

I have no pets. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[Unarmed]

What if you just wanted to get to 1000 posts and figure this stupid thread is a good way to do it. Would you fold then?

[citanul]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
what about if someone threatened to kill your puppy unless you laid down AA PF?

[/ QUOTE ]

What if Citanul is standing beside you and he'll kill you if you fold. Do you sacrifice your life for that of your puppy?

[/ QUOTE ]

this may be my favorite post of all time.

citanul

[TruFloridaGator]

Yeah, I can't even count the number of times I thought some idiot flopped 2 on my Aces but got it in anyway only to find out he has bottom pair with an inside straight draw or worse. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[jedi]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

The only situation were it would be correct to fold AA PF is this:

Sat. Tourny where the top 7 spots pay the<font color="red"> SAME</font> prize ( i.e. one seat, 10k whatever) and there are 8 people left and 8th gets nothing. You are in Late position and two or more people are Allin in front of you. NOW and only now, it would be correct to fold AA Preflop.

-Gryph

[/ QUOTE ]

Not me, I'm trying to win, but good point nonetheless.

[/ QUOTE ]

IF they both have you covered, why on earth would you call here? Barring a freak tie, you've basically won. Winning in this case has the same prize as finishing 7th.

[pooh74]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

The only situation were it would be correct to fold AA PF is this:

Sat. Tourny where the top 7 spots pay the<font color="red"> SAME</font> prize ( i.e. one seat, 10k whatever) and there are 8 people left and 8th gets nothing. You are in Late position and two or more people are Allin in front of you. NOW and only now, it would be correct to fold AA Preflop.

-Gryph

[/ QUOTE ]

Not me, I'm trying to win, but good point nonetheless.

[/ QUOTE ]

IF they both have you covered, why on earth would you call here? Barring a freak tie, you've basically won. Winning in this case has the same prize as finishing 7th.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would use that sarcasm detector link,but...i friggin hate it. it was a joke...but good logic

[ilya]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Maybe, the first hand of the WSOP and somehow two people managed to get all in in front of me holding AA, MAYBE.

[/ QUOTE ]

No. That would be atrocious.

[/ QUOTE ]


If you think you have any skill at all you can easily fold the first hand at the WSOP. There is no reason to risk you whole stack on the first hand with the blinds structure. You start with 10,000 chips and the blinds are only 25-50 to start. That would be like somebody raise $1000 preflop in a 2-5 game that is just obsurd. You cannot win the tournament on the first hand, there is no need to try. Take a look at tournament poker for advanced players, this might give you some further insight.

[/ QUOTE ]

No. It would be atrocious. Sorry.

[Felipe]

If you replace "we were all evenly stacked" with "they were all evenly stacked and I had 1 chip." Then folding AA would be correct.

what starting hand would you wait for to go all in with one chip left? 7-2?

what about if someone threatened to kill your puppy unless you laid down AA PF?

THERE!! Finally some sense!


"I love a guy that'll muck aces face up" Do you fold then?
you reply "What's that? You want me to phuck your as.s face up?"

oh. one last thing. Do you fold the nuts? AA is the nuts (preflop) I agree with the majority here - *never* fold Aces preflop.

[Nottom]

[ QUOTE ]
If you replace "we were all evenly stacked" with "they were all evenly stacked and I had 1 chip." Then folding AA would be correct.

what starting hand would you wait for to go all in with one chip left? 7-2?

[/ QUOTE ]

I hate to bump a stupid fold AA post from 3 months ago yet again ... but I hope you realize calling in this spot with anything (there are 2 players all-in with equal stacks) would be terrible.

[CaptSensible]

i absolutely would not fold AA in this situation. I would be glad that so many others went all in.

[curtains]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If you replace "we were all evenly stacked" with "they were all evenly stacked and I had 1 chip." Then folding AA would be correct.

what starting hand would you wait for to go all in with one chip left? 7-2?

[/ QUOTE ]

I hate to bump a stupid fold AA post from 3 months ago yet again ... but I hope you realize calling in this spot with anything (there are 2 players all-in with equal stacks) would be terrible.

[/ QUOTE ]

Cmon we all know that whenever this happens both players have AK and chop. Sometimes its even sicker and they both randomly have some hand like QJ and chop.

[jcm4ccc]

[ QUOTE ]
Maybe, the first hand of the WSOP and somehow two people managed to get all in in front of me holding AA, MAYBE.

[/ QUOTE ] I would say that it is 1000 times worse to fold AA in the WSOP than in a $10 SnG.

[citanul]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If you replace "we were all evenly stacked" with "they were all evenly stacked and I had 1 chip." Then folding AA would be correct.

what starting hand would you wait for to go all in with one chip left? 7-2?

[/ QUOTE ]

I hate to bump a stupid fold AA post from 3 months ago yet again ... but I hope you realize calling in this spot with anything (there are 2 players all-in with equal stacks) would be terrible.

[/ QUOTE ]

i hate to do this to a post that i had said was probably my favorite thread of all time, but well, now that i have the power, this thread is done for. as usual, any comments on my moderation can be pmed to me.

citanul