too reckless with the big stack?

[dfscott]

I'd been doing lots of pre-flop raising since the table was fairly passive. Is too much against another large stack?

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t200 (6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

SB (t1060)
BB (t1350)
Hero (t2195)
MP (t1875)
CO (t850)
Button (t670)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t600</font>, <font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">BB raises to t1350 (All-in)</font>, Hero calls t750 (All-in).

[kyro]

very interesting hand. i think i fold this originally for fear someone plays back at me and i realize that i could very well be dominated...but i could just be weak tight.

[Unarmed]

I open push. Weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!

Is this wrong?

[pshreck]

[ QUOTE ]
I open push. Weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!

Is this wrong?

[/ QUOTE ]

Why would you do that when you already have T2000 + in chips? The blinds are not all that important to you, and when you do get called, it will probably be a coinflip or worse situation. I just fold.

[Unarmed]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I open push. Weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!

Is this wrong?

[/ QUOTE ]

Why would you do that when you already have T2000 + in chips? The blinds are not all that important to you, and when you do get called, it will probably be a coinflip or worse situation. I just fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

1) MP is unlikely to get involved so my effective stack is &lt;7BB.
2) With 5 left to act there's only a 17% chance someone has a better (non-race) holding than my AJ.
3) Any raise pot commits me so its push or fold and AJs is too pretty.

Hit me if I'm way off. I realize I don't NEED this pot but where do you draw the line? AQ? AK?

[dfscott]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I open push. Weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!

Is this wrong?

[/ QUOTE ]

Why would you do that when you already have T2000 + in chips? The blinds are not all that important to you, and when you do get called, it will probably be a coinflip or worse situation. I just fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

But you're getting over 2:1 here -- 750 to take 2000 -- even if it is a coinflip, you're getting the odds to call.

Or do you see this as one of those +chip EV but -$$ EV situations?

Edit: unarmed beat me to it

[pshreck]

[ QUOTE ]

Hit me if I'm way off. I realize I don't NEED this pot but where do you draw the line? AQ? AK?

[/ QUOTE ]

You said it right there. I draw the line at AQ, and open pushing with that depends on some factors.

I really hate an open push with AJ (and who gives a crap if is suited?). I think you are likely to get called by better hands or coinflips with pp's, or otherwise you steal blinds.

I agree that stealing the blinds is no chump change here, but I just dont think it puts you in too big an advantage over where you just were, but overtime you will be occasionally called, and will add some unneeded variance to ITM finishes when you are the chip lead.

[vinyard]

I open push here as well and I don't like the miniraise. With that miniraise you leave yourself open to somebody re-raising you with a lesser hand than they would have called an all out push with. Sure you're pot committed (and if that was your intent, so be it) but by miniraising you bring a greater range of hands to push back at you.

Unless you have given a read to the rest of the table, I push this on a table that has no limpers, fold it to a miniraise and likely fold to any posts of the BB.

Ultimately it comes down to whether you are looking for monsters under the bed. I think a responsible player in either blind folds everything to an all-in raise except QQ+ and AK. A looser player may call with TT+ or AQ. Sometimes you run into monsters but pushing here is all about using the gap concept and some math to exploit the situation.

[four eight suited]

[ QUOTE ]
I open push here as well and I don't like the miniraise. With that miniraise you leave yourself open to somebody re-raising you with a lesser hand than they would have called an all out push with.

[/ QUOTE ]


What minraise? He was UTG no? and bet 3xBB? I like the raise here. Yes, he is the chip leader but I think just folding here is a little too weak tight given the situation. Its a small table. And yes, after you make this raise, you must call the allin because of pot odds, eventhough its a tourney

[pshreck]

[ QUOTE ]


But you're getting over 2:1 here -- 750 to take 2000 -- even if it is a coinflip, you're getting the odds to call.


[/ QUOTE ]

I fold right off the bat. Of course I would call if I had already raised (which I dont think raising 600 chips makes any sense).

[Elektrik]

First off, your relative stack is 1875 as you are the big stack. Second off, don't think of yourself as "against" the other large stack - you're against the other five players, and each of them factors into your decision.

You have a strong hand 6 way, and (relatively) you have &lt;10BB so you're planning on calling a push anyways, although I could see an argument for making it 500 and folding to MP if he's uber passive, but even that I don't like so much.

IMO, this is a push.

[citanul]

i don't know why i keep seeing your avatar out of hte corner of my eye and thinking it's yugo's. i don't even think that yugo's avatar has ever had a girl in it, has it?

anyway, i think that you're pretty spot on here with why i'd push at least, except you left out a couple factors:

1) i don't want people THINKING that i MIGHT fold if they push, so i push to start
2) i want them to fear me. so i push.

citanul

[vinyard]

Oh, my bad. I misread the hand. I thought he was on the button and it was folded to him. There is a difference the between the push through 2 players and through five players.

The three BB raise is fine and, barrring a read I think you call his reraise there almost every time.

[citanul]

but if you raise to 600, and the 2nd stack pushes here, are you folding?

citanul

[dfscott]

[ QUOTE ]
Oh, my bad. I misread the hand. I thought he was on the button and it was folded to him. There is a difference the between the push through 2 players and through five players.

The three BB raise is fine and, barrring a read I think you call his reraise there almost every time.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you're going to call the re-raise, why not push right off the bat to increase your FE?

[citanul]

the only reason i could think of for not open pushing is if you intend to fold to a push from the 2nd biggest stack, but call any other pusher.

citanul

[wuwei]

[ QUOTE ]
If you're going to call the re-raise, why not push right off the bat to increase your FE?

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly.

I find I make a lot less mistakes now that I push or fold this hand preflop rather than a 2 or 3xBB raise.

[J-Lo]

[ QUOTE ]
i don't know why i keep seeing your avatar out of hte corner of my eye and thinking it's yugo's. i don't even think that yugo's avatar has ever had a girl in it, has it?

anyway, i think that you're pretty spot on here with why i'd push at least, except you left out a couple factors:

1) i don't want people THINKING that i MIGHT fold if they push, so i push to start
2) i want them to fear me. so i push.

citanul

[/ QUOTE ]

yugo's avatar as of now is a hot yugoslavian girl in a white bikini... very similiar

[Apathy]

I push this right off the bat, glad to see you called the reraise though, hope it worked out.

[The Yugoslavian]

[ QUOTE ]
i don't know why i keep seeing your avatar out of hte corner of my eye and thinking it's yugo's. i don't even think that yugo's avatar has ever had a girl in it, has it?

anyway, i think that you're pretty spot on here with why i'd push at least, except you left out a couple factors:

1) i don't want people THINKING that i MIGHT fold if they push, so i push to start
2) i want them to fear me. so i push.
<font color="red">3) you get to yell out Allah Akhbar when open pushing...the same cannot be done when raising to 3xBB </font>

citanul

[/ QUOTE ]

Fixed your post...

Yugoslav

[citanul]

usually the picture of me brandishing a scimitar near their loved onces is enough to get my oponents to fold to my pushes, and i don't need to bring anyone's god into things.

citanul

[prepotency]

Poker stove says you have 65.393% equity against a random hand here.

Can someone please explain this - does it mean to say that you have a 65.393% chance of beating a random hand on the river with AJs?

[BradleyT]

[ QUOTE ]
Poker stove says you have 65.393% equity against a random hand here.

Can someone please explain this - does it mean to say that you have a 65.393% chance of beating a random hand on the river with AJs?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes but it's not a % you want to live by. Hands like 32o, 52o, T4o, etc.. aren't going to ever call here* so you need to run a simulation vs. a sample of callable hand ranges (say 66-AA, AK-AQo). Then it becomes a 37% dog..

*except in unique blind situations.

[prepotency]

Ok, but in theory, if you have a %EQ &gt; 50 and you are say on the BTN and it folds around to you, why not always push?

[Mr_J]

Push. You gotta lay down the law.

"ero raises to t600, 4 folds, BB raises to t1350 (All-in), Hero calls t750 (All-in)."

Like some of the other guys said, if you're planning to call a push from the other large stack, it's better to just push in the first place.

[gumpzilla]

[ QUOTE ]
Ok, but in theory, if you have a %EQ &gt; 50 and you are say on the BTN and it folds around to you, why not always push?

[/ QUOTE ]

The answer is that the equity you describe is chip equity, but the equity that is important is cash equity. The most commonly used tool in discussions on this forum regarding cash equity in SNGs is the independent chip model (ICM). There is an ICM calculator available online here (http://www.bol.ucla.edu/~sharnett/ICM/ICM.html) along with some links to relevant 2+2 threads describing it. It's worth looking at.

[EasilyFound]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't like the miniraise.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not quite on point, but I have a question. Why is this called a "miniraise?" He open-raised a bet = 3xBB. Isn't that a standard opening raise amount? Or are the blinds just too big at this point even though he has 10xBB?

[mackthefork]

With the stacks as they are I'm about 80/20 on open push/fold maximise FE because you can't really fold to almost anyone after betting 600 here. We've all done it before though, but folding is better than this smaller raise here in my opinion.

Mack

[mackthefork]

I think someone already said, you are dominated only 1 in 6 times here, don't fear the reaper /images/graemlins/wink.gif.

Mack

[1C5]

df, 2 things.

I like your 600 raise, it is a play I would have done.

BUT, since you will call pretty much anyone who reraises you back, I am thinking a push or fold here would have been better.

AJs is too strong here for me to lay down I think, so I like the push more and more...

[Unarmed]

[ QUOTE ]
i don't know why i keep seeing your avatar out of hte corner of my eye and thinking it's yugo's. i don't even think that yugo's avatar has ever had a girl in it, has it?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yugo lost a bet to Sixes and now he's being forced to have a hot chick as his avatar. He'll go back to Seigfried and Roy once he gets creative control again.

[Scuba Chuck]

Haven't read any other posts as of yet, but in general, I'd conserve going into a high steal mode until blinds are 150/300 more than 100/200.

Second of all, any hand you'd call an allin with (unless you're trapping) I'd just push to begin with.

This is a great hand to push.

[1C5]

[ QUOTE ]
Haven't read any other posts as of yet, but in general, I'd conserve going into a high steal mode until blinds are 150/300 more than 100/200.

Second of all, any hand you'd call an allin with (unless you're trapping) I'd just push to begin with.

This is a great hand to push.

[/ QUOTE ]

You say too opposite things here. You do not go into a high steal mode until blinds are higher but then you say this is a great hand to push with?

What would be your play here?

[Scuba Chuck]

[ QUOTE ]
What would be your play here?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd open push.

[ QUOTE ]
You say too opposite things here

[/ QUOTE ]

I assume you mean "two."

I don't think they're opposite. I'm saying that if he's stealing with some garbage at the 100 or 200 blind level, there's no need to, and it will cause unnecessary entaglements when you do get a stronger hand. In general, you aren't interested in seeing a showdown.

High steal mode, suggests that I'm just looking for stealing opps when I have two cards. But when the cards present themselves, especially in position (like this hand), it's an easier decision. Furthermore, if you have a table reputation of over stealing, it gives the perception (right or wrong) that you might fold to a reraise. Make the decision easy for villain. Hell, even if villain turns over AT, I would still preferred not to have had the race to begin with (unless of course, it was 4 handed or less).

Edit: I thought hero was SB. This is terrible position. I'd be more likely to either mini-raise this hand, fold, or push from this position. I don't like the 3xBB raise. If I mini-raised, I'd be more inclined to fold to a reraise. Thus, I prefer the fold or push approach.

[Unarmed]

http://www.cyberiapc.com/gallery/albums/userpics/bunny.jpg

[1C5]

Yeah I meant two.

Congrats on Pooh-Bah, that was quick. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

So a fold here for you or a push? I like a push as there is only a 17% chance you will be called by a hand that you don't want to be called by.

[Scuba Chuck]

BTW, I seriously don't think there is anything wrong here with a fold. If the blinds increased on the very next hand, I'd lean a lot more towards pushing. But in general, it seems we forget to give position enough thought.

[Blarg]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Oh, my bad. I misread the hand. I thought he was on the button and it was folded to him. There is a difference the between the push through 2 players and through five players.

The three BB raise is fine and, barrring a read I think you call his reraise there almost every time.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you're going to call the re-raise, why not push right off the bat to increase your FE?

[/ QUOTE ]

This is how I see it.

I would rather just limp or even fold, though, than either push or raise. AJ doesn't seem that strong to me UTG, whether it's suited or not, and the blinds aren't that important to win yet. There are some small stacks that will soon be in trouble on your table, and your stack has you in a position to try to pick some of them off if they make plays into you or just call you out of desperation when you have a better hand and are making moves of your own. Your stack gives you a lot of table influence -- bully power -- over the weaker stacks that it could be worth biding your time for. I think you're giving up a lot of future value by slamming your chips into the pot now when your edge isn't that great.

In short, your edge here is slight, if any, but your edge on some future hands might be very big. Just because you pulled a AJs out of the deck doesn't make it any more important to win this particular hand. I think you'll have better opportunities later, so how +EV it is to get aggressive with this hand is forgetting the forest for the trees.