AQs

[PokerBob]

villain here is 18/9 through 234.

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (7 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is CO with Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, MP2 calls.

Flop: (7.33 SB) 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
MP2 checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 raises</font>, Hero calls.

Turn: (5.66 BB) 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">MP2 bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 3-bets</font>, Hero calls.

River: (11.66 BB) Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">MP2 bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, MP2 calls.

Final Pot: 15.66 BB

[Nick C]

I like it.

So that's my detailed analysis, and now maybe I should actually play some hands tonight.

[SmileyEH]

I think this is a river call - feels a lot more like 99 than A9 up until your river action.

-SmileyEH

Edit: Leave out the action after your river raise next time to prevent results based responses.

[CallMeIshmael]

[ QUOTE ]
I think this is a river call - feels a lot more like 99 than A9 up until your river action.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why is the preflop/flop action more consistent with 99 than A9?

[Nick C]

[ QUOTE ]
I think this is a river call - feels a lot more like 99 than A9 up until your river action.

-SmileyEH

Edit: Leave out the action after your river raise next time to prevent results based responses.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why in the world does it feel like 99? Why should we suspect A9?

Sorry, I'm feeling testy.

But I think the raise on the turn is more questionable than the one on the river.

[spoohunter]

The flop play is the interesting part. Three betting a check raise shows alot of strength, and will almost certainly shut down any weak ace. I don't really like going two bets on the turn with this hand, but I think three betting the flop is a mistake (given he check raised, and we don't want to give out that much information).

I wish I didn't know he just called your river check raise, because that changes alot of things.

[SmileyEH]

perhaps its a feel thing - in any case you need to be 66% sure he has A9 and not 99 on the river.

-SmileyEH

[PokerBob]

[ QUOTE ]


I wish I didn't know he just called your river check raise, because that changes alot of things.

[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't c/r the river.

[crunchy1]

[ QUOTE ]
The flop play is the interesting part. Three betting a check raise

[/ QUOTE ]

Where does this happen??

[spoohunter]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


I wish I didn't know he just called your river check raise, because that changes alot of things.

[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't c/r the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

I know that, and never in reading your post thought that. My fingers think differently I suppose.

[LImitPlayer]

I dunno about A9, I'm putting hum on AK or AJ.
I'd play it the same way.

It is also how I would play AK as well if I was the villain.

[CallMeIshmael]

[ QUOTE ]
But I think the raise on the turn is more questionable than the one on the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. I think I would just have 3-bet the flop, as I don't want to take a line that puts 3 BBs in with one pair on the turn. (despite the redraw... PS: PBob, are you raising any turn, or just Q/A/Hearts??)

(PS: ty for putting me on the list. I'm glad I could help at some point, and feel the same about you).

[spoohunter]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The flop play is the interesting part. Three betting a check raise

[/ QUOTE ]

Where does this happen??

[/ QUOTE ]

It doesn't. I am verbally exploring different lines you can take.

[Rex Ruthless]

OK, pardon the stupid question from a newbie to this forum, but was does the 18/9 through 234 mean. I am assuming a pokertracker stat thru 234 hands to measure their aggressiveness? But I don't have pokertracker yet - holding off until I upgrade to a new computer soon.

[SmileyEH]

An 18/9 caps AK preflop and doesnt go 3 bets on the turn with TP3rdK.

-SmileyEH

[crunchy1]

[ QUOTE ]
I think the raise on the turn is more questionable than the one on the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

I like the turn raise - A LOT.

Hero raises with increased outs.
Raising gives the potential to take it down right there.
HU Hero is ahead here much of the time anyways.
If the flush hits the river and MP2 has the second nuts Hero's hand is very disguised and the river probably gets capped.

VNH Bob.

[CallMeIshmael]

[ QUOTE ]
perhaps its a feel thing - in any case you need to be 66% sure he has A9 and not 99 on the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

AK and AJ are both very possible as well.

[PokerBob]

[ QUOTE ]
An 18/9 caps AK preflop and doesnt go 3 bets on the turn with TP3rdK.


[/ QUOTE ]

What does he have?

[SmileyEH]

Like I said, I think A9 and 99 are the likeliest hands.

-SmileyEH

[PokerBob]

[ QUOTE ]
Like I said, I think A9 and 99 are the likeliest hands.

-SmileyEH

[/ QUOTE ]

Raise a9 pf???

[SmileyEH]

Every day of the week.

-SmileyEH

[crunchy1]

[ QUOTE ]
An 18/9 caps AK preflop and doesnt go 3 bets on the turn with TP3rdK.


[/ QUOTE ]

It's shorthanded to begin the hand. Villian is raising first in. I think the PF range is pretty wide here and Villian probably won't cap any hand for deception purposes HU.

As for the turn - It's tough to know what Villian is going 3 on the turn with w/o post-flop aggression numbers or some other read.

[LImitPlayer]

Uh no your wrong.

I'm 16/10 at 3-6 with just over 100K hands
and 17/8 at 2-4 with With more hands than 3-6

I wont cap this preflop OUT OF POSITION all the time, If I'm against another TAG, I Call the 3-bet unless my AK is suited. Against a LAG it's a cap 9 times outa 10 if it's suited or not.

IF I'm playing against a TAG I'm 3 betting AK on the turn,
Against a LAG I'm betting the turn and calling down a raise

[DMBFan23]

Bob,

I would three bet this flop. AJ, AT, A9s, A8s are all hands that he might have here, and if he doesn't know check-call-check-call-bet, then it's highly likely he's on one of these hands. he could have A5s, 55, AA, or AK, but those are all less likely due to the preflop action IMO. given the way you played the flop, I like your turn raise

[SmileyEH]

And I get shouted down when talking about sample size....

-SmileyEH

[Nick C]

[ QUOTE ]
I like the turn raise - A LOT.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think it's okay too.

[ QUOTE ]
Hero raises with increased outs.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's a big part of the reason I like it. Hero may be ahead, and if he's not, he's got outs or could be freerolling.

[ QUOTE ]
Raising gives the potential to take it down right there.

[/ QUOTE ]

If this happens, then I think Hero is way ahead, and maybe it's not such a good thing. But I think Villain has an ace, which Hero may or may not be beating.

[LImitPlayer]

Yes the Turn raise was fine.

I would have played the hand exactly the same

[PokerBob]

[ QUOTE ]
villain here is 18/9 through 234.

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (7 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is CO with Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, MP2 calls.

Flop: (7.33 SB) 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
MP2 checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 raises</font>, Hero calls.

Turn: (5.66 BB) 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">MP2 bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 3-bets</font>, Hero calls.

River: (11.66 BB) Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">MP2 bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, MP2 calls.

Final Pot: 15.66 BB

[/ QUOTE ]

I felt he may have had AQ also. Maybe AJ or AQ. I felt his flop c/r was a weak move to get me off JJ-KK. I smooth called the flop hoping to pop the turn and maybe fold to a 3-bet, but when it was a /images/graemlins/heart.gif, folding no longer was an option and I thought it was a good semi-bluff with possibly the best hand. When he just called the river raise, I knew MHWG.

He showed me 55. I am the worst player ever.

[LImitPlayer]

My sample size is more than sufficient to rate how I play.

Around 275,000 hands will tell me the type of player I am.

BB/100 is another monster all together.

[LImitPlayer]

ok so we were all wrong.

LOL

[CallMeIshmael]

[ QUOTE ]
An 18/9 caps AK preflop

[/ QUOTE ]

This is not necessarily true.

There has been several discussions recently about whether or not to cap AK vs a tight 3-bettor, HU, OOP.

[Nick C]

[ QUOTE ]
He showed me 55. I am the worst player ever.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh, I don't know. I think maybe Villain should have 3-bet the river.

[CallMeIshmael]

[ QUOTE ]
And I get shouted down when talking about sample size....

[/ QUOTE ]

Stats like VPIP and PFR take a binomial distribution, and have a MUCH MUCH smaller SD than winrate.

You can be far more certain of your true VPIP/PFR rate after 10k hands than winrate.

[PokerBob]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
He showed me 55. I am the worst player ever.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh, I don't know. I think maybe Villain should have 3-bet the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed. I think he saved me a bet.

[CallMeIshmael]

[ QUOTE ]
I think maybe Villain should have 3-bet the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

[SmileyEH]

I was referring to sample size in the sense that you are one TAG player, making generalizations on your own play isn't very telling.

-SmileyEH

[Nick C]

[ QUOTE ]
I smooth called the flop hoping to pop the turn and maybe fold to a 3-bet, but when it was a /images/graemlins/heart.gif, folding no longer was an option and I thought it was a good semi-bluff with possibly the best hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's not really a good semi-bluffing opportunity, because Villain is not folding a hand that's ahead of you.

If your turn raise is good, it's because it's for value.

(I think the raise is good, by the way.)

[crunchy1]

[ QUOTE ]
(I think the raise is good, by the way.)

[/ QUOTE ]

Given the smooth call on the flop... do we think that a flop three-bet would've been an optimal play here though?

With this line Villian would've likely smooth called the flop and checked the turn. Hero would've then had many options on the turn - especially when the heart fell.

[CallMeIshmael]

[ QUOTE ]
do we think that a flop three-bet would've been an optimal play here though?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think it was.

I like the turn raise, GIVEN the heart.

But... if the turn isnt a heart, I'm not as crazy about the possibility of putting 3 BBs in. But I still want value.

So, I think the flop saves us from putting 3 BBs in on a blank turn, but also gets us some value.

[Shillx]

[ QUOTE ]
Like I said, I think A9 and 99 are the likeliest hands.

-SmileyEH

[/ QUOTE ]

This is an absolute joke. If someone is straight forward enough to always cap AK preflop, they are check/folding this flop all day long with nines. Putting him on 99 is far reached anyway imo. Use Ockhams Razor here.

Brad

[PokerBob]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
do we think that a flop three-bet would've been an optimal play here though?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think it was.

I like the turn raise, GIVEN the heart.

But... if the turn isnt a heart, I'm not as crazy about the possibility of putting 3 BBs in. But I still want value.

So, I think the flop saves us from putting 3 BBs in on a blank turn, but also gets us some value.

[/ QUOTE ]

This all is well and good, but it doesn't change the fact that I suck.

[Nick C]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
(I think the raise is good, by the way.)

[/ QUOTE ]

Given the smooth call on the flop... do we think that a flop three-bet would've been an optimal play here though?

With this line Villian would've likely smooth called the flop and checked the turn. Hero would've then had many options on the turn - especially when the heart fell.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know what's best on the flop after Villain's checkraise. PBob's play seems reasonable to me, but maybe someone who's better than I am can clear up the confusion.

If Villain is making a play with a worse hand, though, or even with one he thinks is better but isn't, we don't necessarily want to push him off of it, especially since the worse hands Villain will fold will most likely have two outs rather than three.

[PokerBob]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
(I think the raise is good, by the way.)

[/ QUOTE ]

Given the smooth call on the flop... do we think that a flop three-bet would've been an optimal play here though?

With this line Villian would've likely smooth called the flop and checked the turn. Hero would've then had many options on the turn - especially when the heart fell.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know what's best on the flop after Villain's checkraise. PBob's play seems reasonable to me, but maybe someone who's better than I am can clear up the confusion.

If Villain is making a play with a worse hand, though, or even with one he thinks is better but isn't, we don't necessarily want to push him off of it, especially since the worse hands Villain will fold will most likely have two outs rather than three.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I think I like 3-betting the flop more and more. If he has AK, he'll cap and I can go into call down mode. I'm getting too cute with this wait-until-the-turn nonsense. I think a turn raise makes more sense here if I have AK. (It also makes more sense if I know how to ping a /images/graemlins/heart.gif on the river. I have yet to master that skill.) God I suck.

[sweetjazz]

Bob, I think you played this hand fine.

I don't know that I like the idea of raising the turn and folding to a 3-bet (if a non-heart had come). If he has an ace and a worse kicker or a PP, you want him to bet into you on the turn and river. If you are beat, you see a showdown for two bets instead of folding after investing two bets. You also drag an occassional pot when you spike a Q on the river to beat his AK/A5s.

Even when the 9h hits the turn, just calling may be best. You may still get paid off if you hit your flush, and you are probably in a situtation where you only benefit if he calls your raise with a fairly small range of hands (AJ, AT).

I offer this not as criticism, but only as something to consider if a similar hand comes up in the future.

[PokerBob]

....I think I played this hand very poorly. I think villain could have had a range of hands from 88-JJ and AK-A9. I am ahead of the majority of them. Raising at any time (except maybe the flop) would have likely folded out a worse hand and gotten called/reraised by a better one. I think a call/bet if checked to line may have been the best here on all streets. It wins me the most when I'm ahead and loses me the least when I'm behind.

[Nick C]

[ QUOTE ]
....I think I played this hand very poorly. I think villain could have had a range of hands from 88-JJ and AK-A9. I am ahead of the majority of them. Raising at any time (except maybe the flop) would have likely folded out a worse hand and gotten called/reraised by a better one. I think a call/bet if checked to line may have been the best here on all streets. It wins me the most when I'm ahead and loses me the least when I'm behind.

[/ QUOTE ]

Villain may fold some of the pocket pairs you mention, but I don't think he's folding an ace, PBob.

You just got unlucky, and he flopped a set.

That's my opinion, anyway.

[CallMeIshmael]

[ QUOTE ]
Villain may fold some of the pocket pairs you mention, but I don't think he's folding an ace, PBob.


[/ QUOTE ]

Im also not too sure how often he is checkraised on that flop by 88-JJ. I dont think its a lot, though.

[Shillx]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Villain may fold some of the pocket pairs you mention, but I don't think he's folding an ace, PBob.


[/ QUOTE ]

Im also not too sure how often he is checkraised on that flop by 88-JJ. I dont think its a lot, though.

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly.

[Nick C]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Villain may fold some of the pocket pairs you mention, but I don't think he's folding an ace, PBob.


[/ QUOTE ]

Im also not too sure how often he is checkraised on that flop by 88-JJ. I dont think its a lot, though.

[/ QUOTE ]

It happens, but I think it's fairly rare.

I thought Villain had an ace, and it was a battle of kickers. But PBob had a flush draw on the turn, which I thought gave him an edge over Villain's range of hands. Obviously, in this particular hand, I was wrong.

[tizim]

What does everyone think about waiting until the river to raise? I'm not necessarily advocating that a river raise is the ideal line, but... why not? I just don't see many advantages in raising the turn instead of the river. In fact, when you raise the river:
1) Villain is less likely to 3-bet w/ AK, and
2) you keep from pushing a stupid Villain off pocket pairs or a bluff, as a turn raise may result in.

These are definitely not very important factors, but I just don't see why everyone would rather raise the turn. Anyone care to enlighten me?