Joe Morgan, you know, sucks

[MicroBob]

He is like, uh, you know, the most annoying, uh, commen..., I mean, commen-tator, to have to hear....uh....I mean, you know, listen to.

All night long he's, like, you know, stumbling over himself and it kind of, I guess, I mean, amazes me, that after SO LONG calling TV games...errr, I mean, you know, games ON TV, that he still can, like, struggle, as he does, to complete a sentence.

[jesusarenque]

Joe Morgan is absolutely atrocious. He knows nothing about baseball, which is ironic because he is probably the greatest 2B ever. I mute every game he announces.

[Dead]

I love watching games that Joe Morgan is a part of. He is 10 times better than Tim McCarver.

And Joe Morgan knows his baseball. Lots more than jesusarenque, anyway.

But calling Morgan the greatest second baseman ever is ridiculous, imo. Roger Hornsby earned that distinction. And Alomar is arguably better than Morgan, as well.

[istewart]

Joe Morgan is good.

[JinX11]

Worst sports commentator ever. Most classic quote (referring to Cubs 2B Ryne Sandberg):

"He may be the best second baseman since...well, me!"

[Boris]

I like Joe Morgan, even if he does hate on Billy Beane.

[istewart]

[ QUOTE ]
But calling Morgan the greatest second baseman ever is ridiculous, imo.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is not even close to ridiculous. It's arguable, but not ridiculous.

[Jurollo]

Don't get me started on McCarver... i loathe him.
~Justin

[jesusarenque]

Dead, you know have proven to have little baseball knowledge. Joe Morgan is a horrible announcer. Joe Morgan was a better baseball player than Rogers Hornsby.

[MicroBob]

Joe Morgan is one of my favorite players EVER and is probably one of the 3 best 2nd basemen ever...and possibly the best ever.

I grew up in Cincinnati (and later just outside of Cincy) and idolized Morgan, Rose, Perez, Bench, etc.

He got his broadcast career started in 1985 I believe as the commentator on the Cincy Reds TV network. Ken Wilson was p-b-p.
Morgan sounded nervous ALL the time..we kind of forgave him since he was new but it was still comical to listen to him talk about "I'm really surprised, you know, that they don't intentionally walk him here to get to the pitcher" followed by Ken Wilson trying to get him to change the subject (while NOT showing him up) because the BASES WERE LOADED.

After awhile we gave up on ever thinking he was any good because the guy just couldn't speak.


Fast-forward just a couple years later and he gets a gig on the Giants network (I think) and then is on ESPN on their Sunday night broadcasts (as well as most of their west coast Wednesday games) and the guy STILL can't talk.

I had Morgan (and Rose and others) posters all over my bedroom walls when I was a kid. Now I can't freaking stand the guy.....and I have NEVER been able to no matter how hard I try.

[jesusarenque]

I don't really understand why anyone is saying that he can't talk. He seems like a fine speaker, he just says a bunch of stupid bullshit.

[holeplug]

I think he has a good voice for it but someone needs to tell him its not 1960 anymore

[MicroBob]

One night I counted him saying 5 "you know"'s in a single run-on sentence.

Listen for all of his you know's and uh's and like's.
It's truly awful.


FWIW - I actually like McCarver (and it has ZERO to do with him being from Memphis...I liked him long before I ever moved here).

But obviously he is extremely unpopular with MANY baseball fans.

[Paluka]

I agree with the general sentiment that Joe Morgan was the greatest 2b ever, and is also an atrocious broadcaster.

[jesusarenque]

I could handle Joe saying "you know" if it weren't always followed with some asinine comment like, "a pitcher's ability is determined by the number of wins he earns."

[Dead]

[ QUOTE ]
Joe Morgan was a better baseball player than Rogers Hornsby.

[/ QUOTE ]

You just made the biggest mistake of your life.

Now the onus is on you to prove that Morgan was a better second baseman.

Let's look at my side:

Hornsby has the second highest batting average of all time, at .359 . He was baseball's greatest right handed hitter, EVER.

Hornsby led his league four times in doubles, once in triples, and twice in home runs, and his 289 HR as a second baseman are an all-time record.

No modern player (four did it before 1900) ever hit higher than his .424 in 1924.

He hit safely in 33 consecutive games in 1922.

He was swift down to first and going for extra bases. He had over 1000 extra base hits.

[MicroBob]

The you know's bother me equally as much sa his horrid baseball commentary.


"Adam Dunn is, you know, a good home-run hitter. I mean, you know, that means this guy can really hit some home-runs."

Ummmm....thanks Joe.

[Dead]

So who was better in your opinion, MicroBob?

Who is the best second baseman of all time?

Morgan or Hornsby?

[jesusarenque]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Joe Morgan was a better baseball player than Rogers Hornsby.

[/ QUOTE ]

You just made the biggest mistake of your life.

Now the onus is on you to prove that Morgan was a better second baseman.

Let's look at my side:

Hornsby has the second highest batting average of all time, at .359 . He was baseball's greatest right handed hitter, EVER.

Hornsby led his league four times in doubles, once in triples, and twice in home runs, and his 289 HR as a second baseman are an all-time record.

No modern player (four did it before 1900) ever hit higher than his .424 in 1924.

He hit safely in 33 consecutive games in 1922.

He was swift down to first and going for extra bases.

[/ QUOTE ]

Joe Morgan accounted for 6,516 career bases, leading to 1,650 runs scored.

Rogers Hornsby accounted for 5,885 bases, leading to 1,579 runs scored.

Hornsby played in a league where teams scored 4.43 runs/game.

Morgan played when teams only scored 4.11.

Morgan was a gold-glove fielder, Hornsby was average at best.

For what it's worth, Eddie Collins was also a better 2B than Rogers Hornsby.

[Vince Young]

[ QUOTE ]
He was baseball's greatest right handed hitter, EVER.

[/ QUOTE ]
lol

[Dead]

Lmao.

Thanks for the laugh.

Eddie Collins > Roger Hornsby. Right.

I guess you're one of those people who think that Ozzie Smith is the greatest shortstop of all time as well. I got news for you. Honus Wagner. And it's not even close.

I will give you that Morgan was better defensively than Hornsby. But that doesn't make him a better second baseman. Fielding is only part of the position. Morgan was never a great hitter. He finished with a .271 BA. Hornsby's was almost 100 points higher. Hornsby crushes Morgan in like every offensive category.

[Dead]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
He was baseball's greatest right handed hitter, EVER.

[/ QUOTE ]
lol

[/ QUOTE ]

Cobb was a lefty batter, and Hornsby has the second highest batting average ever.

[jesusarenque]

[ QUOTE ]
Lmao.

Thanks for the laugh.

Eddie Collins > Roger Hornsby.

I guess you're one of those people who think that Ozzie Smith is the greatest shortstop of all time as well. I got news for you. Honus Wagner. And it's not even close.

[/ QUOTE ]

I know Wagner is the greatest SS of all-time. You did nothing to refute the evidence that Morgan is better than Hornsby (much less Collins). Hornsby had a higher BA, which is about it. BA is worthless anyway. The numbers do not lie, Morgan is the greatest 2B ever. Your move, mate.

[jesusarenque]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
He was baseball's greatest right handed hitter, EVER.

[/ QUOTE ]
lol

[/ QUOTE ]

Cobb was a lefty batter, and Hornsby has the second highest batting average ever.

[/ QUOTE ]

Batting average is a worthless measure of offensive ability. You are seriously hurting your credibility, Dead.

[andyfox]

There is a good argument to be made for Morgan as the greatest second baseman ever. Bill James has made it.

Hornsby was the greatest hitting second baseman ever but everyone who saw him play said he was an atrocious fielder. He was traded year after year and the teams he left got better. The Cardinals traded him to the Giants for Frankie Frisch and Jimmy Ring. McGraw had him for one year and then unloaded him.

Eddie Collins, Napoleon Lajoie, Joe Morgan, Rogers Hornsby. I don't know who the greater player was. I do know that it would be amazing if it was Morgan, though, since he knows so little about how baseball games are won.

[jesusarenque]

[ QUOTE ]
Hornsby crushes Morgan in like every offensive category.

[/ QUOTE ]

Or not. See my other post.

[jesusarenque]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
He was baseball's greatest right handed hitter, EVER.

[/ QUOTE ]
lol

[/ QUOTE ]

Cobb was a lefty batter, and Hornsby has the second highest batting average ever.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you implying that Cobb is the greatest hitter of all time?

[Vince Young]

I don't know how you can think he is a better hitter than Hank Aaron. There's more to hitting than average.

[jesusarenque]

[ QUOTE ]
I do know that it would be amazing if it was Morgan, though, since he knows so little about how baseball games are won.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think this is at all uncommon. Most baseball players can't see the forrest for the trees. Morgan probably isn't the only great player who doesn't understand baseball, he just happens to have a forum to spew his idiotic ideas.

[MicroBob]

I'm too biased on this one most likely.

But my vote would go for Morgan.


Obviously it's difficult to say because we're talking about different eras.
And Morgan had the benefit of some pretty damn good hitters behind him (Rose, Perez, Foster, Griffey, Bench).

I think it's fair to say that Morgan's numbers in his back-to-back MVP years would not have been as good if he had a 'normal' line-up behind him.
However....even WITH the fact that they couldn't really pitch around him he was STILL able to draw a ton of walks.


Morgan really did genuinely provide a spark with almost everything he did. He changed the game just by his presence and hustle.

He was a club-house leader and on-field coach in a way similar to Pete Rose....with the added benefit that he had actual talent
(whereas Rose made for being not nearly as gifted a ball-player via his non-stop grit and determination).



Hornsby could hit....and he was fast too of course.
I believe his glove was decent but not spectacular.

But I think Morgan is the guy you would want on your team if you had to choose between the two.

[Dead]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
He was baseball's greatest right handed hitter, EVER.

[/ QUOTE ]
lol

[/ QUOTE ]

Cobb was a lefty batter, and Hornsby has the second highest batting average ever.

[/ QUOTE ]

Batting average is a worthless measure of offensive ability. You are seriously hurting your credibility, Dead.

[/ QUOTE ]

Fine then.

If you're going to push semantics then let's look at OBP and Adjusted OPS+.

Adjusted OPS+:

Hornsby: 175, good for 5th all time.
Morgan: Doesn't even crack the top 100

OBP:


Morgan: .392
Hornsby: .434

A full 5 points higher.

You're telling me that looking at BA is useless? Runs scored isn't much better.

[Dead]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't know how you can think he is a better hitter than Hank Aaron. There's more to hitting than average.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll take a higher BA, higher SLG%, higher OBP, and higher OPS+ anyday of the week.

[jesusarenque]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
He was baseball's greatest right handed hitter, EVER.

[/ QUOTE ]
lol

[/ QUOTE ]

Cobb was a lefty batter, and Hornsby has the second highest batting average ever.

[/ QUOTE ]

Batting average is a worthless measure of offensive ability. You are seriously hurting your credibility, Dead.

[/ QUOTE ]

Fine then.

If you're going to push semantics then let's look at OBP and Adjusted OPS+.

Adjusted OPS+:

Hornsby: 175, good for 5th all time.
Morgan: Doesn't even crack the top 100

OBP:


Morgan: .392
Hornsby: .434

A full 5 points higher.

You're telling me that looking at BA is useless? Runs scored isn't much better.

[/ QUOTE ]

By using BA and OBP you are neglecting the eras in which they played. Morgan played in an environment in which offense was depressed compared to Hornsby's era.

[Dead]

Then compare the OPS+ numbers. They adjust to era.

Hornsby's is 175. 175.

[sublime]

You are seriously hurting your credibility, Dead.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAAAAAAAAa

[jesusarenque]

You obviously can't be convinced. Hornsby did a few things a litte better, Morgan did everything else better. Joe Morgan was a better player. In any case, this debate has show how crazy your initial statement (about how it was Hornsby by a mile) was. Morgan, Collins, and Hornsby are all pretty close in value, and way ahead of all other second basemen.

[jesusarenque]

[ QUOTE ]
You are seriously hurting your credibility, Dead.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAAAAAAAAa

[/ QUOTE ]

Touche. I meant baseball credibility.

[sublime]

Touche. I meant baseball credibility.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAA

[jesusarenque]

[ QUOTE ]
Touche. I meant baseball credibility.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAA

[/ QUOTE ]

Double touche.

[Dead]

[ QUOTE ]
Morgan, Collins, and Hornsby are all pretty close in value, and way ahead of all other second basemen.

[/ QUOTE ]

My first statement was a bit extreme. Joe Morgan was a great player. But I really do think Hornsby was a better second baseman. And it's not because I don't like Joe Morgan. As I said above, I think that he is a great announcer.

And I don't think that you should discount Ryne Sandberg and Robbie Alomar. Sandberg is already in the hall as a 2B, and Alomar will join him in about 5 years.

[jesusarenque]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Morgan, Collins, and Hornsby are all pretty close in value, and way ahead of all other second basemen.

[/ QUOTE ]

My first statement was a bit extreme. Joe Morgan was a great player. But I really do think Hornsby was a better second baseman. And it's not because I don't like Joe Morgan. As I said above, I think that he is a great announcer.

And I don't think that you should discount Ryne Sandberg and Robbie Alomar. Sandberg is already in the hall as a 2B, and Alomar will join him in about 5 years.

[/ QUOTE ]

1. Joe Morgan is absolutely horrible as an announcer. He knows very little about baseball. He doesn't understand what makes a player good. He also lets personal bias interfere with his evaluation of players. He is atrocious.

2. An argument can be made for Hornsby being a better player than Morgan. I don't think it is a winning argument, but one can be made.

3. No rational argument can be made for either Sangberg or Alomar being better than Morgan or Hornsby.

4. Joe Morgan is a horrible announcer who doesn't understand baseball.

(Did I mention JM is a bad announcer? Ok)

[Dead]

[ QUOTE ]
No rational argument can be made for either Sangberg or Alomar being better than Morgan or Hornsby.

[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't say that one could be made. But I don't think that Morgan and Collins are WAYYYYY better than Sandberg and Alomar.

Most every player in the Hall is good. There are a few that are light years ahead of everyone else in greatness, and Morgan is not one of them.

[Vince Young]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
No rational argument can be made for either Sangberg or Alomar being better than Morgan or Hornsby.

[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't say that one could be made.

[/ QUOTE ]
Actually, you did. Twice.

[jesusarenque]

[ QUOTE ]

Most every player in the Hall is good. There are a few that are light years ahead of everyone else in greatness, and Morgan is not one of them.

[/ QUOTE ]

I suppose this is true, in a way. Babe Ruth is light years ahead of every one else in the HOF. Nobody else is close. I don't think that is what you meant, however, because you said "players." Morgan and Hornsby are both in the top 25-30 players of all time. They are light years ahead of most HOFers.

[Dead]

Do you agree with Vince that Hank Aaron was a better hitter than Hornsby? I don't deny that Aaron could hit for power better, but I think that Hornsy was the better hitter.

[jesusarenque]

[ QUOTE ]
Do you agree with Vince that Hank Aaron was a better hitter than Hornsby? I don't deny that Aaron could hit for power better, but I think that Hornsy was the better hitter.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not that this, by itself, is a good argument, but has ANY significant source ever rated Horsnby above Aaron? I don't think I've ever seen Hornsby rater higher.