JJ -- sometimes I don't like this hand at all [Archive]

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Nick C

04-13-2005, 09:05 PM

This was my first hand at the table, and I had no previous hands with either of my opponents.

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is CO with J/images/graemlins/club.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif. Hero posts a blind of $3.
1 fold, UTG+1 raises, 3 folds, Hero (poster) 3-bets, 1 fold, SB caps, 1 fold, UTG+1 calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (13 SB) 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 3/images/graemlins/club.gif (3 players)
SB bets, UTG+1 calls, Hero calls.

I was thinking there was a good chance I was beat and no ace was folding. I figured I'd just call and see what the turn brought and the action looked like.

Turn: (8 BB) 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (3 players)
SB checks, UTG+1 checks, Hero bets . . .

Well, the two checks seemed like an invitation. Maybe SB will fold KK-QQ or something and UTG+1 just has a worse pair. I'm folding to a checkraise.

Is this turn bet worth bothering with?

Klepton

04-13-2005, 09:13 PM

perfect, but what's your river plan if he calls?

i would most likely check it through at he seems to not want ot lay down QQ or KK

MoreWineII

04-13-2005, 10:00 PM

I like the turn bet, but I think I'm checking behind on the river.

adamstewart

04-13-2005, 11:07 PM

Raise the flop for value. (Further, if you're re-raised, it'll give you a better idea where you stand later on).

Given SB's action thus far, wouldn't you say he either has a bigger pair than you OR an ace? Either way, you're very likely behind at this point.

Having said that, I still bet the turn but fold to a check-raise. AND CHECK THE RIVER THROUGH UNLESS A JACK FALLS.

Note: betting the turn, even though you're likely behind, costs you no more than having to call an inevitable bet on the river, but gives you the advantage of not giving up a free card, and getting a free showdown.

Adam

CallMeIshmael

04-13-2005, 11:19 PM

I like with your turn/river ideas... but

[ QUOTE ]
Raise the flop for value.

[/ QUOTE ]

There really is no value on this flop.

Looking at:

equity (%) win (%) / tie (%)

Hand 1: 33.1970 % [ 00.32 00.02 ] { JJ }
Hand 2: 43.6566 % [ 00.42 00.02 ] { AA-TT, AKs, AKo }
Hand 3: 23.1464 % [ 00.22 00.01 ] { random }

Basically, a flop raise is for information only.

And im not crazy about raising for info only... especially when I want to get to SD cheaply, unless certain cards come.

adamstewart

04-13-2005, 11:24 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I like with your turn/river ideas... but

[ QUOTE ]
Raise the flop for value.

[/ QUOTE ]

There really is no value on this flop.

Looking at:

equity (%) win (%) / tie (%)

Hand 1: 33.1970 % [ 00.32 00.02 ] { JJ }
Hand 2: 43.6566 % [ 00.42 00.02 ] { AA-TT, AKs, AKo }
Hand 3: 23.1464 % [ 00.22 00.01 ] { random }

Basically, a flop raise is for information only.

And im not crazy about raising for info only... especially when I want to get to SD cheaply, unless certain cards come.

[/ QUOTE ]

NOTE: HAND #3 is not random whatsoever.

If you're not raising the flop you're either:

* Raising the turn or river if blanks fall (which is even more expensive when you're re-raised).

* Calling down the whole way. Do you suggest this?

Adam

CallMeIshmael

04-13-2005, 11:34 PM

[ QUOTE ]
NOTE: HAND #3 is not random whatsoever.

[/ QUOTE ]

obviously... but its not like it helps our equity.. I thought was assumed. (it goes down about 1.5% or so)

[ QUOTE ]
If you're not raising the flop you're either:

* Raising the turn or river if blanks fall (which is even more expensive when you're re-raised).

* Calling down the whole way. Do you suggest this?

[/ QUOTE ]

If the turn blanks, I like raising for a free showdown. (on a blank turn, we do have a slight equity edge)

If 3-bet, you can safely fold your 2-outter.

If a scare card comes (wheel completer or an A/K) and he leads out again, I think a fold is best. A flop call loses less this way.

Nick C

04-15-2005, 08:32 PM

After I bet the turn, SB checkraised, UTG+1 cold-called, and I folded.

The 3 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif fell on the river. SB bet, UTG+1 called, and SB took the pot with A /images/graemlins/heart.gif K /images/graemlins/diamond.gif versus UTG+1's Q /images/graemlins/heart.gif Q /images/graemlins/diamond.gif.

I was pretty sure I was behind on the turn, so after the hand I wondered if my turn bet, which basically amounted to a bluff, was futile.

Thanks for the responses.