WLLH: PF Limp-ReRaise

[tor]

So, Lee Jones talks about the limp-raise pf as a great move pf if you're *sure* someone will bet behind you. The problem is, I've never seen conditions like this, nor do I really understand how sure "sure" is.

What do you think are the correct conditions for a pf limp-reraise?

I'll reply with my guess. I know this isn't a hand history, but I think blind responses would be more intersting, all the same.

[numeri]

The correct conditions are "not any game I've ever played in." Maybe in HU play or no-limit. Never in micro-limit.

[wyoak]

having a maniac or two at your table might make this a good play, but only if you're, say, UTG with a monster.

[MrWookie47]

There was a post not too long ago where the OP was playing with a guy who sat down at a 0.50/1 table with a $15k stack and announced that he would cap every single hand preflop (he followed through), and capped every street on his last hand. If I was holding AA or KK UTG at this table, this would be the very first time I have ever even considered the limp-reraise.

[DeathDonkey]

I've played in many cracked out live games where this is a great play UTG with your monsters. It is especially good if you are at a LAGgy table and have a tight image. Open raising UTG will get you little action with such an image but when you limp reraise, they will be scared, but never fold.

The first time I limp reraised AA UTG I was soooo scared of it getting limped around and me winding up feeling like an idiot later. But then the button raised and I felt like a genius. It's really quite the fun gamble that way, but like any gamble, if you can recognize your chance of success you will have the best of it.

-DeathDonkey

[Greg J]

I have never limp reraised in ring limit game I have played in. Nor do I forsee doing so in the near future. I am completely convinced that this has cost me very little, if any, money.

[GrunchCan]

Here's an old thread (http://archiveserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=micro&Number=1296055&Forum =All_Forums&Words=-re%3A%20%2Blimp&Searchpage=0&Limit=25&Main=1296055 &Search=true&where=bodysub&Name=16000&daterange=1& newerval=1&newertype=y&olderval=&oldertype=&bodypr ev=#Post1296055) of mine about the same thing. I still think I got the criteria right, but I also agree with SomethingClever's response too.

If you never LRR, you leave almost nothing behind. Also, if you don't intuitively know that right now is the right time to LRR, it's probably best to just PFR. Just my opinion.

By clicking the link, you also get to see very early posts from several posters you know. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[jaxUp]

I was hoping that link would be a major n00b thread, where everybody looks like a tool.

[homebrewer]

sfer's response at the end of Grunch's older thread makes a lot of sense too. This play will not work well against "good" players. You tip your monster hands to the "good" players and fail to protect yourself against poor players.

Even if this is a bluff against a strong player, the likelihood of getting called down by a weak player outweigh the benefits of scaring off a better player.

[KingOtter]

I've had plenty a maniac sit down and raise a good 80-90% pre-flop hands. I think they've read Doyle's Super System and it talks about sitting at a table and raising everything in order to loosen everybody up, because then you go back to playing a tight game and everyone else is all crazy loose.

I don't really think it works, but if I'm sitting on the right of one of these crazies I might be pretty certain he's going to raise it.

That said... I still wouldn't limp-re-raise. I'd love for him to make it 3 to everyone so it's likely just me a el-loco for the hand.

KO

[dancraw]

Limping in early position seems to just set off the chain reaction of limpers most of the time, and you'll end up playing your AA against 7 people instead of getting your raise in. Even with a real maniac behind, leading out seems better to me. I like my chances of getting to cap it in that situation.

[Wetdog]

A LRR would have the same effect as a raise from BB, unless it somehow came from MP. Then you'd have a whole table screaming "collusion". My fancy plays usually ended up costing me chips.

[GrunchCan]

[ QUOTE ]
I was hoping that link would be a major n00b thread, where everybody looks like a tool.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't need to post old threads of mine to look like a tool. /images/graemlins/smile.gif I accomplish that in other, more subtle ways.

[ChoicestHops]

I see it happening alot at .50/1 on Party. I dont think it makes much of a difference in my opinion. I dont do it because there's never a guarantee that someone will raise.

[tor]

*grunching*

Assumptions:

The purpose of the limp-reraise (LRR) is to build a quick pot while scaring weak callers out of the pot.
The cost of having a LRR checked around must be at least break even with the avg payout of a successfully executed LRR times the frequency of successful execution.

Cost of Failure <= Freq of Success * Average Success Payout

A "success" is when someone behind raises after your limp. A failure, is when no raise behind occurs.
You can play solidly on the flop and later streets.


Given these assumptions, Avg Success Payout is most easily maximized by playing only good hands. If you play bad hands, you lose money. Okay, easy. Play monsters pf, AA-JJ, and AKs.

How to increase the chance of success? The most surefire way here is to look at people's PFR%. If the sum of PFR%s behind you is greater than or equal to 95%, I think a limp-reraise attempt is in order.

I think this is a somewhat conservative approach, but I think it definitely sets some good criteria for when to try this. Though, one thing I'm unsure about is the starting hand selection. Perhaps AQs AJs as well?

[tor]

I think that thread holds a lot of water, especially SomethingClever's response. Thanks for the pointer.

Though, I have one big problem with your original criteria.

[ QUOTE ]
2) In order to be profitable, at least twice as many people would have to be willing to limp as would call 2 cold. This implies that the table must be generally of higer skill.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think that criteria is *way* too conservative.

In order to be profitable, the amount of money you would make if people just called two cold has to be the same amount as the number of limpers + the number of limpers willing to put in another SB - the lost equity from people who wouldn't have called two cold (but will call one and complete) who make a hand that beats yours after the flop.

Sorry if I don't use equity properly here, as I'm a pretty new player. What I mean is you also have to account for the fact that a LRR will probably have more players on averge seeing the flop than if you had simply raised to begin with, which will lower the value of your hand.

[GrunchCan]

[ QUOTE ]
Play monsters pf, AA-JJ, and AKs.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd limit it to AA and KK, possible AKs.

[ QUOTE ]
If the sum of PFR%s behind you is greater than or equal to 95%, I think a limp-reraise attempt is in order.

[/ QUOTE ]

How do you arrive at this value? How do you know it isn't 50%?

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Play monsters pf, AA-JJ, and AKs.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd limit it to AA and KK, possible AKs.

[ QUOTE ]
If the sum of PFR%s behind you is greater than or equal to 95%, I think a limp-reraise attempt is in order.

[/ QUOTE ]

How do you arrive at this value? How do you know it isn't 50%?

[/ QUOTE ]

For Shania value, you need to throw in some more hands if you're going to LRR. I'd suggest AJs, maybe QJs, and 77. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

I don't LRR at full tables when I'm playing seriously, but I do it seriously at 2+2 tables when people are playing LAGGY. Generally I'll do it with AA-KK, 99, QJs, QTs, JTs, AKs, and occasionally AJs and 77.

Rob

[xenthebrain]

Whenever I saw this play, they were holding either AA or KK. If I see that, I watch out. (Rarely you see someone who makes this reraise just because he liked the raisebutton more than the call button, but that's the irrational play of a sucker)

[Shillx]

Yeah the abdul approach is pretty good for limp reraising. Clark has said before that his default play is to limp reraise with a few hands. Medium pairs and good suited aces come to mind as good hands to do it with. In a tight-aggro game I would do it with AA/KK/99/88/AJs+ and stuff like that. In a loose-aggro game you can do it with QQ-77/AK/ATs+ imo.

Brad

[LipBalmGuy]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't LRR at full tables when I'm playing seriously, but I do it seriously at 2+2 tables when people are playing LAGGY. Generally I'll do it with AA-KK, 99, QJs, QTs, JTs, AKs, and occasionally AJs and 77.

Rob

[/ QUOTE ]

If you have a copy of Gary Carson's book The Complete Book of Hold'Em Poker (which is very good), look at the chart on the bottom of page 150, under "gambling hands" in chapter 12 "The theory of starting hand value". He suggests some hands to raise from the button if you know you're going to get a certain number of callers. For example, if you have T9s and you know you'll get five callers, raise! (At least according to Gary's chart -- he's more of a maniac than I am.)

That helps to answer "when and what do I limp-reraise with?" Once you know you'll get callers, raise with some of these hands (adjusting for position).

For example (preflop): EP calls J/images/graemlins/heart.gifT/images/graemlins/heart.gif limps MP1 raises MP2 calls LP calls BT calls BB calls EP calls J/images/graemlins/heart.gifT/images/graemlins/heart.gif should raise here

That's because you know you're going to get five or six callers. It wasn't strong enough to raise without those callers before, but it is now.

[tor]

[ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
If the sum of PFR%s behind you is greater than or equal to 95%, I think a limp-reraise attempt is in order.

[/ QUOTE ]

How do you arrive at this value? How do you know it isn't 50%?

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, WLLH says only to LRR when you're *sure* someone behind you will raise. 50%, imo isn't anywhere near sure. So, I picked 95%. I haven't played enough hands to get good statistics, but it would be interesting to see how "good" of a number this is.

Perhaps one of the vets could take a look in their dbs and see how good of a stat this really is.

[tmoore44]

The only times (3) I've limped/reraised is when I've had a maniac sitting to my right. Someone who's raising 30-40% of their hands. My reriase will force everyone between me and the maniac to call 2 more bets since I know the maniac will cap preflop.

I usually get enought cold callers at 0.50/1.00 that I've never had to worry about the limp/reraise at a normal table