Good call down?

[shawn_p]

UTG+1 is new to the table and posts under the gun (wtf?) so no reads other than he's an idiot.

PokerStars 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is CO with Q/images/graemlins/club.gif, Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif. UTG+1 posts a blind of $3.00
UTG calls, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 (poster) raises</font>, UTG+2 calls, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, UTG folds, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 caps</font>, UTG+2 folds, Hero calls.

Flop: (13 SB) 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 6/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 bets</font>, Hero calls.

Turn: (7.50 BB) K/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 bets</font>, Hero calls.

River: (9.50 BB) J/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 bets</font>, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 11.50 BB

[Pokey]

Where was your flop raise?

This is the PICTURE PERFECT hand to raise on the flop, and doing so would tell you OODLES. The reason your turn and river decisions were so hard was that you had no idea what UTG+1 actually held. All he did was raise/cap the preflop and then bet out at everything.

A flop raise gives you much information:

If he folds it, you learn that you win. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

If he calls it but bets the turn, you can assume the turn card helped him. That probably means he had a K, and he's probably got you beaten, although a flush possibility is not out of the question. I'm torn between calling down and raising the turn bet, with a raise to tell if he's on the flush draw or if he has the king.

If he reraises the flop, you can fold the turn bet -- whatever he's got, it's too scary for you to stick around for two more BBs when that K shows up.

This hand unfolded exactly the way you DIDN'T want it to go, and your passive flop caused you to either bleed chips all the way down or even lose a pot to a runner-runner flush, isolated king, or something weird like J9s.

[brettbrettr]

Raise flop.

As for posting UTG, misclicks happen. I did it last night. I am not an idiot. But most of the time I agree idiots post UTG which should have given you even more incentive to raise the flop. Raise the flop please.

[SeaEagle]

Excellent post Pokey.

When I read this question earlier, I expected to come back and see a bunch of "Raise the flop, you moron" posts, which don't help the original poster at all because he won't understand why to raise the flop.

[Nick C]

[ QUOTE ]
This hand unfolded exactly the way you DIDN'T want it to go, and your passive flop caused you to either bleed chips all the way down or even lose a pot to a runner-runner flush, isolated king, or something weird like J9s.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think Villain will fold overcards to a flop raise, and I don't think he's folding J9s on the flop or turn either.

[PokerBob]

[ QUOTE ]
UTG+1 is new to the table and posts under the gun (wtf?) so no reads other than he's an idiot.

PokerStars 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is CO with Q/images/graemlins/club.gif, Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif. UTG+1 posts a blind of $3.00
UTG calls, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 (poster) raises</font>, UTG+2 calls, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, UTG folds, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 caps</font>, UTG+2 folds, Hero calls.

Flop: (13 SB) 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 6/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 bets</font>, Hero calls.

Turn: (7.50 BB) K/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 bets</font>, Hero calls.

River: (9.50 BB) J/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 bets</font>, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 11.50 BB

[/ QUOTE ]

I assume you didn't raise the flop so that you could pop a safe turn?

If not, you should have gone bonkers on the flop. If he keeps firing on the turn, then I go into calldown mode.

[Nick C]

I know others have said to raise the flop, but I don't think the line you took is so bad. I very much doubt a flop raise will fold anything you'd like to. A raise could perhaps get you information that could help you find a fold later in the hand, but I'd prefer to get to showdown against someone who just showed up at the table and posted in EP. A raise could be for value, but UTG+1 has represented a big hand, and you could easily be behind.

Anyway, the turn card is awful, and all of a sudden you're basically hoping UTG+1 has QQ-TT or loves all pocket pairs equally or is continuing to fire with AQ-AJ or has something mediocre (that you're still beating) but is trying to make a big first impression.

In any event, I might have called down too. I doubt that's the best default play in this spot, but I want to see Villain's cards.

[meep_42]

I'm fine with the flop. The board is pretty drawless for most hands an unknown would cap, so giving AK a cheap card isn't that bad, since he may fire on a blank turn card.

Seems like a decent use of way-ahead/way-behind on the flop, to me.

I'm thinking real hard about folding the turn, though, as there's very little that an average player caps with here that you beat. (JJ/TT/AQ are unlikely, but possible), and at 9.5:2 to call down here, i'm not sure it's +EV, but I could be convinced otherwise.

-d

[shawn_p]

My main concern on this hand was to get showdown as cheaply as possible after he capped preflop. I checked the flop intending to raise the turn if a blank hit (then the king came doh!). So I went into call down mode thinking I was behind but wanted to see his cards.

Does anyone get away from this hand w/o a flop raise on the turn or river agains an unknown?

[StellarWind]

I play it the same.

1. I am very opposed to laying down QQ against an unknown opponent. This is limit poker and you cannot make plays like that in big pots when you don't know what you are doing. Certainly if he can cap with a smaller pair like TT he can 3-bet the flop when his hand looks much better. I also refuse to accept the stop-n-go must mean he improved idea. That's just not the way it works. You have no safety in any fold.

2. You are never going to force out any hand you want out. This hand is strictly about gaining/saving bets. The posters who suggest that you may be responsible for losing the pot are kidding themselves.

3. Unless unknown Villain has an extremely wide capping range, raising is -EV. The drawbacks of attacking AA/KK are obvious. The problem with AK/AQ is more subtle. If you call down you will get a bet on every street including the river. But put in a flop raise and he will probably call twice and fold the river unimproved to save himself 1SB. Of course if he improves you will eat the extra action you put in. Raising is only good if you are very likely to have him pair-over-pair. There certainly are players like that but this is an unknown opponent.

4. The previous argument and the actual play show why it is better to wait for the turn if you want to raise (against a suitable LAG opponent). If you are going to jeopardize your river bet from AK you want to be sure you get a big bet in return. When the actual king (or ace) turns you save money by foregoing the raise.

5. Another problem with raising is that 965 flop is sucking your pot equity. Every pocket pair in the 99-55 range is either a set or holding four extra outs.

[einbert]

[ QUOTE ]

2. You are never going to force out any hand you want out. This hand is strictly about gaining/saving bets. The posters who suggest that you may be responsible for losing the pot are kidding themselves.

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly. I play it the same.

[SeaEagle]

Am I the only guy who often sees non-CO posters sit down and try to buy the first hand they're in, as if they're Mike Caro or something?

Even if I think this poster caps with just a few additional hands that a normal player wouldn't, say, TT and AQo, then flop raising QQ is a value raise.

The way the hand was played, which I assume was treating villian as if he was a normal EP raiser, I generally fold the turn. There are virtually no normal EP capping hands that you're beating.

[StellarWind]

[ QUOTE ]
Am I the only guy who often sees non-CO posters sit down and try to buy the first hand they're in, as if they're Mike Caro or something?

[/ QUOTE ]
I think we mostly notice the spectacular examples and overlook the humdrum of normal play. I doubt this is really very common.

I object to OP's use of the work "idiot". All we know from Villain's EP post is that he is here for the fun and not the money. Many recreational players have high-pressure jobs, lots of money, and little free time. Absorbing a dollar of -EV means nothing to them if they get to play two extra hands. It doesn't make them unskillful or dumb. The correct read is that they value fun over money and will play accordingly.

[DMBFan23]

good to see you posting again

[SeaEagle]

[ QUOTE ]
I object to OP's use of the work "idiot". All we know from Villain's EP post is that he is here for the fun and not the money.

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't disagree. My impression is that they tend to be looser - not necessarily fish (or idiots) but, as you point out, they're looking for a little enjoyment and folding 80% of their hands isn't all that enjoyable.

I was just trying to point out that if we translate that looseness into capping just a few extra hands (which I'm not sure is a correct translation) then the hand gets played differently.

[Nate tha' Great]

Stellar,

I'm still like 90% convinced that your Bob Ciaffone.

[ QUOTE ]
3. Unless unknown Villain has an extremely wide capping range, raising is -EV.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree. He has plenty of equity on this flop against a range of hands like JJ-AA, AK, AQs, and the opponent might cap a fair bit lighter than that having posted UTG. I'm willing to go to war here a little bit for value.

[ QUOTE ]
The drawbacks of attacking AA/KK are obvious. The problem with AK/AQ is more subtle. If you call down you will get a bet on every street including the river. But put in a flop raise and he will probably call twice and fold the river unimproved to save himself 1SB. Of course if he improves you will eat the extra action you put in. Raising is only good if you are very likely to have him pair-over-pair. There certainly are players like that but this is an unknown opponent.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're neglecting that you'll get a calldown from an unimproved AK pretty darned often, provided that the board does not get too scary.

[ QUOTE ]
4. The previous argument and the actual play show why it is better to wait for the turn if you want to raise (against a suitable LAG opponent).

[/ QUOTE ]

The main problem with waiting to raise the turn is that I don't know think that you can fold to a 3-bet, which makes things get quite expensive those times that he does have AA/KK. IMO, raising the flop might get you closer to the appropriate risk/reward ratio in this spot.

[StellarWind]

[ QUOTE ]
The main problem with waiting to raise the turn is that I don't know think that you can fold to a 3-bet, which makes things get quite expensive those times that he does have AA/KK. IMO, raising the flop might get you closer to the appropriate risk/reward ratio in this spot.

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't think you can fold to a turn 3-bet either. But why does that matter?

The same 3-bet risk exists on the flop. If a flop raise is +EV after you factor in everything including a possible 3-bet, shouldn't a turn raise offer the same advantage but with double stakes?

Actually many "sensible" players may conclude that the turn raise means rockets. Even if they think about it, they are unlikely to realize that you are playing them for a LAG when they are actually not very aggressive. The turn raise may be less likely to be 3-bet by KK simply because it sounds strong.