Problems with middle pocket pairs (77)

[JerseyDrake]

In looking over my PT stats I see that I am still having problems with middle pocket pair holdings.

Many fish at the table but no read on SB or UTG+1.

Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is CO with 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+1 calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP2 calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls, Button calls, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (6 SB) 5/images/graemlins/club.gif, 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(6 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, BB calls, UTG+1 calls, MP2 calls, Hero calls, Button folds.

Turn: (5.50 BB) K/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, UTG+1 checks, MP2 checks, Hero checks.

River: (5.50 BB) 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 bets</font>, MP2 folds, Hero folds, SB calls, BB folds.

Final Pot: 7.50 BB

Results in white below: <font color="#FFFFFF">
SB has Ad 5d (one pair, fives).
UTG+1 has Kh 2h (two pair, kings and twos).
Outcome: UTG+1 wins 7.50 BB. </font>

[Mister Z]

There is an example in the back of SSH that resembles this hand almost exactly under the Flop Exercises section (or whatever it's called). In that example they recommend folding mainly because the pot was small and because the pot had been bet and called by another opponent.

The pot here is a nice size, but I still think you should fold the flop. 3 other opponents like their hand enough to call and your odds of catching a 7 on the turn are too slim for this pot size. You are behind here and are very unlikely to catch up. The button could raise destroying your already marginal calling odds. You could lose (big) to a flush even if you do catch a 7 on the turn, and your BDFD is too weak to really consider against 5 opponents.

However, if it were checked to you on the flop you should bet. Calling here where you did is a mistake, raising is probably gives you a better shot at winning the pot than calling.

[MrWookie47]

I think you played this hand very well. There is a good chance you're ahead on the flop, but your position relative to the flop betttor sucks. Raising here isn't going to get anyone to fold. Had you been acting immediately after him, I'd be inclined to raise. Here, it's better to wait to the turn where you equity could change substantially. Unfortunately, that king ruins your day. Even if you don't give credit to the field for pairing the one overcard to your PP, it's seldom that a group of 4 opponents doesn't have you beaten when there are two. I think that's a good check, and you can safely fold to the river bet in this small pot.

[Wetdog]

&lt;grunch&gt; Raise PF. You're in LP with 2 limpers and you want the blinds to go get a beer. The flop has 1 bettor and 3 callers, so raise. You'll see if SB is feeling good enough about his hand (what, Js, 5s or 2s) to reraise and make it 2 bets to the callers. Apparently nobody is feeling frisky about the turn, or SB is slowplaying. A check is ok here I think, but a value bet might be better. I think the river gave UTG+1 8s so he's betting that. It's a small pot in the example, so no sense calling.

[emitch]

You are playing a 23:1 draw into a small pot. If the pot were big, or there were no overcards on the board, I would play this further. But with five players in, you are bound to be outdrawn even if you are not beat now. If you were closer to the bettor, you could raise to try to knock out some of the others, but you are just in a bad position for this play.

I have winning numbers for my 22 - TT and KK, AA but a big loser on my JJ and QQ. I think the AA, and KK speak for themselves. I believe that I am able to win wit the low PPs (22 - 77) is because I play them ONLY for the set. If it does not hit on the flop, then I ditch them, no exceptions. I rarely feel bad about it later. Once in a while I will see the third hit on the turn or river, but the odds just aren't there to draw. As for the 88 - TT, depending on the flop, they can fall into either catagory. If they are an overpair after the flop, they have a reasonable chance of making it. If they are an overpair, play them hard and make them pay. If not, dump it. And occasionally you hit a set with them.

I think for my JJ, QQ I need to start treating them more like the mid pocket pairs instead of the high PP and I might be able to win with them. If you have a winning strategy with them, I would love to hear it. I feel like this is a big leak for me.

Hopefully that wasn't to wordy.

mitch

[jaxUp]

It sounds like you are missing a bit of value with your mid pocket pairs. They don't necessarily need to be an overpair to win. Are you raising TT pf? 99? In a lot of cases you should be.

A no set, no bet method for low pps may be safe , but playing that with "no exceptions" is likely not winning you as much as it could. 66 and 77 have some strength against weak opponents, especially HU.

[emitch]

If the questions are to me, I bet/raise my TT over 80% (this took me a while to learn) and my 99 depends on position and how many limpers/folds there are to me. Also if someone early raises and everyone else folds to me, I will raise and hope they have two overcards, not a high pair (maybe even 99 or 88). This seems to work out well enough to be profitable. You are absolutely right about the no exceptions issue. I mostly meant against five or six players I just can't see this being a good situation unless you can raise and knock the rest of the field out.


Good point, kind of like "never say never". But I do think this is a good, safe place to start until the poster gets comfortable with the type of situations that you mention and can get them on the profitable side. This isn't always the best place for the safe answers, but playing mid pairs can be really tough for some people (me being one of them).

mitch

[IPSC]

I didn't look at the results you posted.

If you weren't the fifth player to act on the flop I think this would be a definite raise if you had earlier position.

I don't think you have enough equity here to raise or call. I would fold.

Since you called the flop and everyone checked the turn, I would really want to bet the turn and hopefully take a free showdown.

[flopwell]

I would raise PF, but if UTG+1 is limping K2s, I don't think its gonna fold him out. On flop, with SB betting into you and 3 callers, you are getting 10-1 pot odds, and I just don't think the implied odds are there to chase a 2 outer-I don't give any outs for the BDFD as its so poor.