A real question about teaching poker

[PokerGoblin]

OK I started a new thread because the previous one on the subject had already become cluttered w/ BS...

(Cross posted in General Holdem)

A little background:

A friend from work, 6 years younger than I, has asked me (on several occasions) to teach him to play poker. He's a good kid, 20 yrs old.

He has a general idea of the money that can be made playing, I don't think he is all that mathmatically inclined though. He seems genuinely serious about learning, I tried to dissuade him, telling him of the thousands of dollars I've burned through over time to get to where I am now... but he seems pretty much set on learning, so I am going to teach him.

My first thought was to let him deal for us in our home game. That way he can get a feel for the flow of the game, at the same time he can collect a few tips and use that money to build a bankroll. After a couple sessions, he should have a pretty good idea of what it's about on the surface and if it's something he's interested in.

If he wants to pursue it, I will then start to explain a few of the basic concepts, such as tight preflop standards, pot odds, position etc.

I am concerend that he is blinded by the money potential and could possible go into ruin because of it. I would describe him as having an addictive personality, he is 20, he smokes cigs, drinks regularly and is obsessed with modifying his car... he's a good kid though, he helps his mom support the family (he lives w/ his mom and younger teenage brother); he lost his dad about 1 1/2 years ago.

If you going to teach a complete newbie poker, primarily holdem, how would you go about the subject?

Thanks,

PG

[TStoneMBD]

youre right, he probably is going to hurt his financial situation with poker by the way you describe him.

if youre going to teach him how to play poker, get him TOP and the ed miller book. after hes done reading those books tell him to read this forum 40hours a week, or whatever time he can budget into his schedule.

he is only allowed to spend that time in the high content poker forums such as the limit forums, the no limit forums, hush, MTT and 1TT.

once he has accumulated 1000 posts you should give him a test that determines whether he is ready to play poker. you dont want him to start off as a losing player. i was never a losing player and there is no reason why he should be.

if hes not interested in going through these strict guidelines then he cannot play poker. period. you really cant do much to teach your friend how to play, well. learning how to play well takes light years of time, and there are so many books out there that can do a better job than you. this forum is the best way to go about improving your game, but most people wont bother taking the time to learn through here. they want a candy method on becoming the world series of poker champion. that is simply not possible.

[Bluffoon]

Hand him a couple of books, give him the 2+2 URL, explain general bankroll concepts and advise him to play nano limits and work his way up. Have him send you blocks of hand histories to comment on and question him about his decisions.

Explain to him that if you judge that he isnt serious about studying and learning you are not going to waste your time with him and mean it.

[PokerGoblin]

[ QUOTE ]

youre right, he probably is going to hurt his financial situation with poker by the way you describe him.

if youre going to teach him how to play poker, get him TOP and the ed miller book. after hes done reading those books tell him to read this forum 40hours a week, or whatever time he can budget into his schedule.

he is only allowed to spend that time in the high content poker forums such as the limit forums, the no limit forums, hush, MTT and 1TT.

once he has accumulated 1000 posts you should give him a test that determines whether he is ready to play poker. you dont want him to start off as a losing player. i was never a losing player and there is no reason why he should be.

if hes not interested in going through these strict guidelines then he cannot play poker. period. you really cant do much to teach your friend how to play, well. learning how to play well takes light years of time, and there are so many books out there that can do a better job than you. this forum is the best way to go about improving your game, but most people wont bother taking the time to learn through here. they want a candy method on becoming the world series of poker champion. that is simply not possible.


[/ QUOTE ]

WTF is your point in posting that? Do you think this is a joke?

BTW don't bother responding, I'm looking for ways to help the kid out, maybe help him skip a few of the growing pains I could have done without.. and maybe show him how he can make a decent supplement to his income in time. It's apparent you're not interested contributing to that.

PG

[TStoneMBD]

um... i was serious. ive given that advice to many posters on these forums and you are the first person to ever insult me for it. i shouldnt have wasted my time trying to help you. you obviously know what youre doing.

[dogmeat]

I think having your friend deal for a while is a great tool, providing you give him some feedback after each game so he can get his questions answered. If he has no questions, then he is either the second coming of Stu Ungar, or he probably is not going to do too well at poker.

Also, FWIW - why do so many people cross-post their questions? IMHO it is really annoying.

Dogmeat /images/graemlins/spade.gif

[TheCaptain]

TStoneMBD and Bluffon are both right, unless you want to stake him, then go right ahead.

[ianlippert]

The BEST thing I ever did was grind out $10 on the penny limit tables over at ultimatebet. In 2 months I've almost grinded my way to 1/2. There is absolutely no reason why anyone should go bankrupt trying to become a pro player.

If he cant handle the fact that its 'boring' he'll never make it. I've tried to get anyone who was interested in poker to do this. It always fails, they wanna move up before they are ready. The thing is, is that if you are good you should be able to grind to 1/2 in 3-6 months tops. If you are bad it saves you tons of money, until you get good.

This what I suggest you tell him, whether or not he listens is another thing.

[Leonardo]

I think the most valuable thing to teach before he even starts playing is the concept of expected value. I'd say using a dice or roulette table may be a good tool to get him thinking the right way about things. Then maybe start playing holdem with the flop and turn already on the table and some amount of money in the pot, and get him to work out different EV calculations based on the last card coming (have the opponents hand face up maybe), such as the opponent has two low pair, he has a pair and top kicker, what is the EV of calling/folding etc. The other things, such as patience, dedication etc, im not sure you can teach anyway, but going in with the right frame of mind sure cant hurt.

[four eight suited]

Alright, have the kid read TOP but also super system 1. TOP is the most solid book around but you said he might not be that math savvy. Thats why I suggest super system; its an easier read, less math intensive. After and while he is reading these books talk with him about all the concepts. I like the idea of having him deal at your game. You could use sample hands that he deals to explain important concepts. But as everyone knows, it takes experience to learn. These things are a good way to start but he really just has to play as much as he can after learning a few basics.

[four eight suited]

Is it even feasible at all to teach him expected value first? He doesnt really understand the game yet and isnt that great at math. I agree that in hindsight I wish I knew it earlier in my developement, but who knows when I was ready for it. Definitely not day 1

[2ndGoat]

<<he is only allowed to spend that time in the high content poker forums such as the limit forums, the no limit forums, hush, MTT and 1TT.>>

You forget Internet Gambling.

2nd

[2ndGoat]

Is Ed Miller's book now recommended for developing players before reading HEPFAP? I don't have that one yet as I haven't been in "small stakes" hold'em for awhile.

I've been reading Ciaffone's Mid Limit Holdem lately and I think it might be better to read that before HEPFAP because it's much more concrete. But maybe Ed's ought to come before that, even.

2nd

[helpmeout]

Teach him about bankroll management. This is the most important part.

Then tell him to look limit holdem up on google. Get him to order WLLHE, ITH and Eds new book.

Play free money games while he learns the very basics.

$20 at pacific poker start at 5c/10c move up when he has 300BB for the next limit.

Tell him to ask you again when he has $400.

When he has $400 tell him to get SSHE TOP MLH and HEPFAP.

Move to PP get PT, get a good monitor.

etc...

Dont waste your time explaining concepts, thats what books and online resources are for. If he cant be bothered doing all this for himself then you are wasting your time.

Most people just want easy money so they'll give up in 2 weeks or a month or 3 months.

[Goodnews]

Though I understand what style of learning you are coming from, as it is what most teachers do before applying previous concepts to new and more difficult ones. There is a flaw within it and perhaps, you as a person was able to overcome it. The fact is, his younger friend is not you, its highly likely that _just_ reading about poker, and not playing for quite a while will yield a high percentage that the player will just quit without ever having touched felt.

What you are suggesting is like having someone learn every concept in Calculus, from derivatives to gradients and mutlivariables, but only when they finish learnig multivariables that they do their very first derivative. Or having read about form and proper shooting stance in basketball, learn proper dribbling and layups, learn how to set a pick at the right time and learn to make a cut at the right time and _only_ after you've spent 40 hours a week for a couple of weeks actually pick up a ball and start playing and expect to be great.

I have read your replies to posts like these, and they are similar, you can't possibly expect to learn and understand pot odds, equity, hidden outs and expected value then apply them all to your very first game.

So unless you expect the kid to spend his time reading hand histories and playing them out in his head as he would play them out, with calculations, then method of teaching poker won't work very well on someone who doesn't possess an iron will.

[Goodnews]

i like this one the best out of all situations

[Andy B]

And what we really need around here is 1000 posts from someone who's never taken a hand. There is no substitute for playing experience, and the money involved should mean something to you.

[Misfire]

Play-money tables and freerolls. SweetFreerolls.com has games listed he can get into just about every 15 minutes all day long. One he feels comfortable, then let him drop $25 into UB and promise that he'll never deposit again (if he loses it all, he has to go back to playing freerolls to win it back).

[bobbyi]

[ QUOTE ]
WTF is your point in posting that? Do you think this is a joke?

BTW don't bother responding, I'm looking for ways to help the kid out, maybe help him skip a few of the growing pains I could have done without.. and maybe show him how he can make a decent supplement to his income in time. It's apparent you're not interested contributing to that.

[/ QUOTE ]
I was going to try to help you here, but once you replied so rudely to TStone's thoughtful and honest attempt to help, I decided not to waste my time.

[Sully]

[quote}once he has accumulated 1000 posts

[/ QUOTE ]

Great. Just what we need. Another person on the forums who is on a mission to have a thousand posts. Because as we all know, the more posts you have here, the smarter you are.

[KidPokerX]

First things first: The kid must understand the reality of poker. The lifestyle, the swings, the money. He needs reality.

I agree with Bluffoon as well. In my opinion, this is the best way to go about teaching a newbie how to become successful.

[varoadstter]

Have you ever taught anyone before? Other than the basics of how the play goes can you actually offer him insight that has helped you personally? I would suspect (I don't know you personally, so if I'm wrong I apologize) that the best poker books out there would do a better job than you could in instructing someone in the nuances of play.

Dealing your home game is certainly useful. If for no other reason than just to get familiar with the flow of the game. He could also spend time trying to read hands (once he's not overwhelmed keeping up with the play).

At some point he will need to play. Experience can't be simulated - he's got to put money on the line, work on his tells, etc. Depending on what kind of bankroll he's got available it will probably be a while before he's able to make any meaningful amount of money playing.

While he's playing (this is absolutely critical) he needs to keep full records of his session stats. Many poker players are self-deluded into thinking they are "about break even" when in truth they are pissing away their money.

There are some benefits for playing online that make it unique to OTB play. Tools like PokerTracker make it possible to do full post-session analysis and if he plays online this is an opportunity that should not be passed up. It's the fastest way I know of to discover the leaks in my game and give me the hard data on how much each leak is costing me.

Once he "masters" something then it's time to find a new challenge. Perhaps he could play S&Gs or try NL or even play other games like stud or omaha. During all of this you will need to help him evaluate his play and be able to offer suggestions to help him take it to the next level.

I wish you luck.

[Zetack]

[ QUOTE ]
The BEST thing I ever did was grind out $10 on the penny limit tables over at ultimatebet. In 2 months I've almost grinded my way to 1/2. There is absolutely no reason why anyone should go bankrupt trying to become a pro player.

If he cant handle the fact that its 'boring' he'll never make it. I've tried to get anyone who was interested in poker to do this. It always fails, they wanna move up before they are ready. The thing is, is that if you are good you should be able to grind to 1/2 in 3-6 months tops. If you are bad it saves you tons of money, until you get good.

This what I suggest you tell him, whether or not he listens is another thing.

[/ QUOTE ]

Man, you are a wild risk taker. I started off on casino vidio game that had limit poker. When I beat that, I moved to play money onoline. When I built up my starting 50 BB play money roll to 1000 BB's (playing limit, none of this accumulating millions at NL play money) I finally jumped into real money. I started with nickel dime though.


--Zetack

[Sincere]

If you cant understand what TStone was doing then the best advice you can give your friend is find someone else to teach him besides you, IMO.

[AnyTwoCanLose]

Sorry, buddy. Its not all world series of poker and Maverick and Rounders.

You are a hot-head.

You describe your friend as a hot head.

You don't seem to have the temperment for poker (perhaps it is a wild guess... but you seem like a tilter) I doubt your friend does.

Seriously... there are two ways to learn how to play poker and make money.

1) read and study a book.

2) Play and lose until you either give up or read and study a book.

Poker is not for noobs. If he can't do math find another game.

The last thing a kid that cares only for smoking and cars and is too lazy to read a book needs is a "father figure" (seriously... what's the deal?) encouraging him to throw his money away.

[PokerGoblin]

[ QUOTE ]
You are a hot-head.

[/ QUOTE ]

Interesting. On what do you base this astute assessment?

[ QUOTE ]
You don't seem to have the temperment for poker (perhaps it is a wild guess... but you seem like a tilter)

[/ QUOTE ]

Nothing in the original post, or any of my previous posts (feel free to use the search function; PM me if you don't know how) would imply that this is true.

[ QUOTE ]
Poker is not for noobs. If he can't do math find another game.

[/ QUOTE ]

Neither is 2+2. Go back to RGP.

-----------------------------------

You are an idiot, and I base that not on your amazingly insightful line regarding my long desire for a little brother (sorry, already have one), but on the rediculous amount of stupidity that you have cluttered these forums with over the past 2 months.

Get a [censored] life.

PG

[AnyTwoCanLose]

I just base my judgement on the fact that you rudely dismissed a poster whose only mistake was wasting his time writing you a very insightful post.

You comments on me are pretty accurate, though.

[PokerGoblin]

OK

I thank everyone for their time and opinions. There have been some good suggestions made that will really help.

As far as my response to TStoneMBD's initial response, I took what he said as little more than sarcastic nonsense. If you were sincere in your suggestions then I appreciate your effort nonetheless and I apologize for the insulting retort.

I am not trying to shield my friend from the grinding it out as we all have had to do to get where we are now. That is a requirement for improvement. All I am trying to do is prevent him from the same problems that occur for all people who dive into this with no real direction.

Perhaps a better query would have been titled something like "If you had to start over again, what would you do differently to get back to where you are now?" or something to that effect.

At any rate, the hostilities were unnecessary, and I apologize for my role in them.

If anyone is interested I will post later when and if this materializes.

Thanks again for the advice

PG

[Triumph36]

I say teach him the rules, tell him about good starting hands, and let him go on play money or micro stakes. I think that people recommending that he read a book before he's even begun to play don't understand that a player has to look at poker as an interest first, because as a profession, it's a rather boring profession.

If he's smart, he will begin to develop a rudimentary understanding of the basic concepts without knowing it. When you think he's break-even or close to it, then get out the books and begin teaching that way.

[Shawn Keller]

Assuming that you are qualifed to teach him how to play poker, I am not understanding why you would want to give him free lessons, he's not even 21 and you seem to think he's lacking in several important areas, I would definitely advice against teaching him at this time. If anything you should recommend that he read all he can before you start teaching him that he read the basic holdem book by S&M and then he reads HPFAP and John Feeney's "inside the poker mind" and all the essays on 2+2 as well as the good articles archived in cardplayer. Let him spend 3-6 months studying the game on his own, working with simulation programs or play money and not even doing any gambling initially before he starts playing low limits, if he has that kind of dedication then he may become a decent player or better.

Remember you don't have to teach anybody how to play no matter how persistent they are in wanting free lessons, and you shouldn't talk poker to a student in a live game thats bad for the game.

Hope it works out for you,

Shawn "Lightning" Keller