QQ hand, bet into on flop with king.

[dozer]

UTG is a loose aggressive passive..after 65 hands 66/9/0.46

Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is Button with Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif, Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="#CC3333">UTG raises</font>, UTG+1 calls, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, SB calls, BB calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls.

Flop: (15 SB) 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, UTG+1 calls, Hero???

UTG raises preflop, I 3-bet, and he bets into me on the flop with a king on it. What should hero do here? I think I'm behind.

[d00nut]

Second post in response to The Challenge.


I raise, and seriously consider folding to a reraise. I don't give him credit for a king just yet, and raising here may buy you a free card on the turn, where you can play the river at your lesiure. A smooth call and turn lead from villain probably has me laying this down unless I hit a queen.

Gud?

[@bsolute_luck]

3-bet. yes he may have the K, but you want to limit the field behind you and you have outs to a BDSD. capped, i'd call and fold the turn UI.

[thesharpie]

Raise. If he 3 bets you can safely fold the turn UI.

[dozer]

after thinking about it, I think calling down is better,raising accomplishes nothing. Raising will only eliminate worse hands if I'm ahead and will build the pot if I'm behind. Theres no way I'm gonna make a flush draw or a king fold. So if the better is bluffing, I'll let him keep bluffing. BTW , I posted the hand because I made a big mistake that was bugging me for awhile and had to see what 2+2 ers would do here.

[thesharpie]

[ QUOTE ]
after thinking about it, I think calling down is better,raising accomplishes nothing. Raising will only eliminate worse hands if I'm ahead and will build the pot if I'm behind. Theres no way I'm gonna make a flush draw or a king fold. So if the better is bluffing, I'll let him keep bluffing. BTW , I posted the hand because I made a big mistake that was bugging me for awhile and had to see what 2+2 ers would do here.

[/ QUOTE ]

You wouldn't mind getting lonely aces or low pairs to fold in this huge pot. True you're not going to get many people to fold, but it's more of an information raise so you're able to fold the turn if you're behind and save yourself .5bb. The chance of getting an overcard or low pair to fold is even more reason to raise.

[dozer]

Well I just read this post from Ed Miller that MMBTONE posted in his collection of 2+2 posts.

I think this applies to raising in my situation in this hand as well.

"So I 3-bet to find out where I stood..."

Ed Miller
How many of you have said this recently? Raise your hand...

I think it is basically always wrong to 3-bet for the purpose of "finding out where I'm at." There are two reasons:

The information is unreliable

So you are looking to see if your opponent just calls your 3-bet, or if he 4-bets. Let's examine what each reaction could mean.

Calls the 3-bet:
&amp;#61607; Because he's waiting for the turn to raise again with a big hand
&amp;#61607; Because you've scared a timid player into calling you down with a better hand
&amp;#61607; Because it confirms that your opponent was screwing around with a weak hand or a draw

4-bets you:
&amp;#61607; Because he has a big hand
&amp;#61607; Because he has a big draw and wants to semi-bluff you and/or try for a free card
&amp;#61607; Because he likes to say "Cappuccino!"
&amp;#61607; Because he's overplaying a weak hand
&amp;#61607; Because he 3-bet you preflop with K4s, missed the flop, and now has to play it like the nuts to have any hope of winning


No matter how your opponent reacts, you STILL don't know if you are ahead or behind. What good is "finding out where you're at" if you don't find out where you're at?

You bloat the pot

The second problem is that you make the pot really big. By the time you get 4-bet, the pot often becomes too big to fold! So, you either fold too much when the pot is big (does that ring any bells?), or you don't use the "cheap" information that you got.

In poker, we should play tighter when the pot is small and looser when the pot is big. When you raise for information, you are planning to fold if the pot gets bigger.

Having said all that, it might be right to raise for information against a particularly PREDICTABLE player. If his reaction to the 4-bet RELIABLY tells you about his hand, then it may be worth it. Online, this is almost never the case. (1) You see new players every half hour, and (2) many people play like total maniac goofballs online. 3-betting with the intent to fold to a 4-bet (or call the 4-bet and fold on the turn) against these goons is a TERRIBLE play.

Also, it's ok to call down, guys. You aren't a "horrible calling station" if you call down with a hand you aren't sure is best (but is too good to fold because of the size of the pot). This is especially true if the pot is already heads-up or three-handed. It is no longer so important to protect your hand with a raise... so you can often start calling down.

Raising on the flop is almost never a "cheap" way to get information that will "save you money" on later streets. The information is far too unreliable. "Cheap" often means paying four bets to see a turn card that should have only cost one or two. "Saving you money" often ends up meaning making bad folds in big pots.

Break the habit...

[@bsolute_luck]

[ QUOTE ]
after thinking about it, I think calling down is better,raising accomplishes nothing. Raising will only eliminate worse hands if I'm ahead and will build the pot if I'm behind. Theres no way I'm gonna make a flush draw or a king fold. So if the better is bluffing, I'll let him keep bluffing. BTW , I posted the hand because I made a big mistake that was bugging me for awhile and had to see what 2+2 ers would do here.

[/ QUOTE ]

i doubt he's bluffing. you call, you're letting any A or low pocket pair to stay in. even if he is bluffing, the pot is big enough (i think) to take it right there. i'm raising because:

1. i want to make flush draws pay for staying when they don't hit

2. cut down the odds for small pocket pairs to get trips on the turn and the remote backdoor draws.

3. i have outs to improve to a straight.
4. it may buy the unlikely free turn card.

[thesharpie]

He's talking about 3 betting. Raising is different than 3 betting.

Imagine the same board, the same players, except you act before villain. You bet, villain raises, you 3 bet. That is what Ed miller is talking about. Yes this is silly, as this costs 2BB if he caps, and it costs the same to call down. Also you might have to call down anyway because the pot is so large you're getting the right pot odds.

But we're talking about raising. Even if he 3 bets there won't be so much in the pot that you have to call to hit your 2 outer, you can safely fold the turn UI. And you do have a decent enough read to know he's passive. Not many passives 3 bet the flop with a hand you're beating.

If the pot is heads up, or maybe 3 way, I don't mind your line. With 2 others to act you really want to knock them out , and this is an added benefit of raising like I previously said.

[@bsolute_luck]

this is a good discussion. i'll be interested to see what other more people think.

i'm not raising for information, so that is one major caviat to the post you are referencing. i am not doubting he has the King, but i do have outs to improve if i'm behind to him.

part of your original post however suggested he might be bluffing and you want him to keep bluffing. i don't think this is correct and since you have good position on the bettor and the field, i'm still raising.

[dozer]

[ QUOTE ]

1. i want to make flush draws pay for staying when they don't hit

[/ QUOTE ]
You are never making a flush draw pay, a flush draw actually has equity in a large multi way, by raising you are actually helping them.

[ QUOTE ]

2. cut down the odds for small pocket pairs to get trips on the turn and the remote backdoor draws.

[/ QUOTE ]

you want to keep small pocket pairs in, they are drawing to a 2 outer, they are the ones that are paying you off so why would you want them to fold thier 2 outer draw?

[ QUOTE ]
3. i have outs to improve to a straight.

[/ QUOTE ]

a backdoor gutshot straight draw? thats a terrible draw that almost never hits

[ QUOTE ]

4. it may buy the unlikely free turn card.

[/ QUOTE ]
Why would you want a free card here?

[@bsolute_luck]

[ QUOTE ]
You are never making a flush draw pay, a flush draw actually has equity in a large multi way, by raising you are actually helping them.

[/ QUOTE ]

every time i make them put in a bet, i'm making them pay. i didn't say i was trying to make them fold because they're not.

[ QUOTE ]
you want to keep small pocket pairs in, they are drawing to a 2 outer, they are the ones that are paying you off so why would you want them to fold thier 2 outer draw?

[/ QUOTE ]

i want them to fold or pay because IMHO i think it is big enough to win now. sure it is an unlikely 2 outer, but they do hit. i don't want them to even be given that chance.

[ QUOTE ]
a backdoor gutshot straight draw? thats a terrible draw that almost never hits

[/ QUOTE ] that's true, but i guess i think you're still drawing if you're behind a K that's all.

[ QUOTE ]
Why would you want a free card here?

[/ QUOTE ] my thinking is if you're going to call down, it costs the same unless you think he'd 3-bet the flop, which would be read dependent i guess, but the only hand i can think he raises preflop and not 3-bet then lead out is KQs which you're drawing dead to anyways, so i don't think he'd do it. obviously it's your read though and not mine.

[dozer]

ok, I understand now, since the raise is mainly to make overcards fold not just for information. Actually I didn't call down. I folded the flop. Thats my big mistake that was bugging me. I felt that since the flop better was passive, that he wouldn't bet into me on the flop after I 3-bet preflop if he didn't have at least a king.

The results pissed me off.

Hero folds, SB folds, BB calls.

Turn: (9 BB) 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
BB checks, UTG checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 bets</font>, BB calls, UTG folds.

River: (11 BB) 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 bets</font>, BB calls.

Final Pot: 13 BB

Results in white below: <font color="#FFFFFF">
BB has Js Jc (two pair, jacks and sixes).
UTG+1 has Ad 8d (one pair, sixes).
Outcome: BB wins 13 BB. </font>

Notice that UTG the person that bet into me on the flop, folded the turn?!!?

[GrunchCan]

Just call. A raise by hero offers 2:19 to SB, which is correct for many draws to play. Consider raising a turn that doesn't complete a draw and isn't an A to strip off SB &amp; BB. Calling down is fine here.

[SlantNGo]

True, but I would still raise... a weak Ace will call 1 bet here, but I'm not sure about 2. I like a flop raise, turn bet, then the river would be a debatable value bet. A fold on the flop is bad though, the pot is too big.

[ QUOTE ]
Just call. A raise by hero offers 2:19 to SB, which is correct for many draws to play. Consider raising a turn that doesn't complete a draw and isn't an A to strip off SB &amp; BB. Calling down is fine here.

[/ QUOTE ]

[Aaron W.]

Just call. He may have AK/AA/KK, but JJ/TT/AQ/AJs are still potentially out there.

The pot is too big and your hand too weak to be raising here when you can't effectively do anything except bloat the pot. If UTG bets into me again on the turn (and an ace does not fall), I raise (unless it's heads up), planning to fold to a 3-bet. On the river, I'm leaning towards just checking.

[@bsolute_luck]

[ QUOTE ]
Just call. He may have AK/AA/KK, but JJ/TT/AQ/AJs are still potentially out there.

The pot is too big and your hand too weak to be raising here when you can't effectively do anything except bloat the pot. If UTG bets into me again on the turn (and an ace does not fall), I raise (unless it's heads up), planning to fold to a 3-bet. On the river, I'm leaning towards just checking.

[/ QUOTE ]

i guess this is why i don't understand calling: villain is loose-aggressive passive. so what would he raise preflop and not cap with? not AA,KK, AK, and i'm even doubting any pocket pair, but i'll give him QQ-TT. that leaves maybe AQ,AJ,KQ for any playable hands (we can throw in some junk being loose-aggressive).

the pot seems big enough to be aggressive and try to win it right there? why let 2-outers and Ax stay in? reevaluate on the turn because you have good position for whatever falls?

[bozlax]

There are a LOT of hands I can see UTG betting out in this situation...he's LOOSE. Plus, also, his post-flop agg number isn't 0, so he does bet/raise once in a while postflop.

The pot is already too big to be able to effectively protect your hand. A raise on the flop gives the blinds 9.5 to 1 odds to call. If you wait until the turn (assuming everything plays the same), a raise from you only makes it 7 to 1, and you're giving a spade draw a cheap card.

Ok, I've talked myself into it. Raise, for the sole and exclusive purpose of taking control of the hand. If 3-bet I call and fold the turn UI, but you won't be. UTG has a middle PP or A/images/graemlins/spade.gif-rag. UTG+1 has TT/JJ that he was too afraid to 3-bet PF. SB and BB will fold to your raise.

[Aaron W.]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Just call. He may have AK/AA/KK, but JJ/TT/AQ/AJs are still potentially out there.

The pot is too big and your hand too weak to be raising here when you can't effectively do anything except bloat the pot. If UTG bets into me again on the turn (and an ace does not fall), I raise (unless it's heads up), planning to fold to a 3-bet. On the river, I'm leaning towards just checking.

[/ QUOTE ]

i guess this is why i don't understand calling: villain is loose-aggressive passive. so what would he raise preflop and not cap with? not AA,KK, AK, and i'm even doubting any pocket pair, but i'll give him QQ-TT. that leaves maybe AQ,AJ,KQ for any playable hands (we can throw in some junk being loose-aggressive).

the pot seems big enough to be aggressive and try to win it right there? why let 2-outers and Ax stay in? reevaluate on the turn because you have good position for whatever falls?

[/ QUOTE ]

You're not going to win it right there. UTG and UTG+1 are both seeing the turn. UTG raised UTG (duh), so I'm willing to give him a stronger hand than if he had raised in late position.

I don't really care if Ax hangs around because I'm dumping when an ace falls (it's now far too likely I'm beat by UTG for me to want to continue).

You can also leech more equity out of the flush draw (if it's out there) by making him pay two bets on the turn. It also makes this hand easier to drop if the turn action heats up if a flush card falls.

I don't dislike raising now, and I think reasonable arguments can be made for either.

[SlantNGo]

This tips it a turn raise. Good analysis Aaron.

[ QUOTE ]
I don't really care if Ax hangs around because I'm dumping when an ace falls (it's now far too likely I'm beat by UTG for me to want to continue).


[/ QUOTE ]