lost with an overpair

[dfscott]

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t15 (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

UTG (t1303)
UTG+1 (t1287)
MP1 (t790)
Hero (t510)
MP3 (t1085)
CO (t745)
Button (t770)
SB (t675)
BB (t835)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, J/images/graemlins/club.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+1 calls t15, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls t15, MP3 calls t15, CO calls t15, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (t90) 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 3/images/graemlins/club.gif, 9/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(6 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 bets t55</font>, Hero ???

My hand is better than top pair, but very vulnerable. I also have a ton of people left to act behind me.

I was torn between putting in a raise of 100-150 here or just dumping it, assuming that I wouldn't be able to take it down. Another option is pushing, but I felt like that was a little reckless. I didn't feel like calling was an option due to my stack size.


Thoughts?

[Patrick Duffy]

i think i like pushing, but thats cause im on tilt from being down to 510 with blinds still at 15. actually, yeah i really do like pushing. qq, kk, and aa raise preflop, villain is feeling cocky and has chips to spare so he threw in that bet with aj or something. shove em in, watch em fold.

err wait...you do want everyone to fold, right?

i definitely think i want to take it down now, while im still confident my hand is good. if you call and a a,k or q drops then you dont know what to do. better to push and take it while its yours.

[citanul]

i like a raise. you're short, likely have the best hand, will possibly get some dummy with a pair to double you, and will often not fold out hands that would fold to a push that you don't want to fold out here. i know that you can play for set value with jj sometimes, but this seems like a really bad spot for it. i'd probably make it about 200 to go, be fine taking it down, but try to thin out the herd some.

citanul

[citanul]

i dunno how much i like this "you just want to take it down becaue there's 1/4 of the deck that's kinda scary." homey needs chips. homey needs to put aside fear sometimes, and let people draw with cruddy odds. if all else fails, raise enough to committ youself.

citanul

[Patrick Duffy]

i think its still plenty early enough to push, take it down, and only be down about 150 for the tourney. i dont think homey needs chips bad enough to risk letting a chump draw out just cause hes giving them cruddy odds. maybe i like raising to 250 or so a little better tho. just let them know youre willing to go all the way with this one so their a9 or kj doesnt look so good any more. raising also most likely gets rid of any flush draws, which is always good.

calling and hoping for no raises behind you isnt bad either, now that i think about it. if a non-scary card hits on the turn, its a definite push from there.

i think...

[The Yugoslavian]

Pick a better spot.
Level 1 jack jack is meh.
Folding is sublime.

Yugoslav

[eastbay]

[ QUOTE ]
Pick a better spot.
Level 1 jack jack is meh.
Folding is sublime.

Yugoslav

[/ QUOTE ]

Raise but not all-in
You cannot fold in this spot
You'll get paid too much

eastbay

[Patrick Duffy]

FE is crucial
to the victor go the chips
i like sandwiches

this whole poetry thing aint my bag

[raptor517]

holla back eastbay
i like what you have to say
raise yer jacks right here

holla

[The Yugoslavian]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Pick a better spot.
Level 1 jack jack is meh.
Folding is sublime.

Yugoslav

[/ QUOTE ]

Raise but not all-in
You cannot fold in this spot
You'll get paid too much

eastbay

[/ QUOTE ]

Five hundred ten chips.
I think I've changed my mind now:
Raise and PROFIT BITCH!

/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Yugoslav

[Bluff Daddy]

how much would you raise?

[citanul]

i'm really hoping that he says "to about 200"

citanul

[The Yugoslavian]

[ QUOTE ]
how much would you raise?

[/ QUOTE ]

~130. And with no reads call an allin as this is an 11 or 22 I'm assuming. I'm most likely stuffing the turn.

Yugoslav

[abcd1234]

Fold - what chance is JJ to win against 5 other players (even giving them random hands) when in most cases the only players who will stay in past the flop will have you beat or you will be a small favorite to beat.

[mike28]

Raise it up df scott
Then when the turn shows no club:
Pull the trigger kid

[stupidsucker]

510 chips means raise this preflop IMO.

As for in this spot on the flop I throw back a minraise and call an all-in HU but not 3way. If I am cold called I push the turn with no ace and no club.

[dfscott]

[ QUOTE ]
i dunno how much i like this "you just want to take it down becaue there's 1/4 of the deck that's kinda scary." homey needs chips. homey needs to put aside fear sometimes, and let people draw with cruddy odds. if all else fails, raise enough to committ youself.

citanul

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is a key concept. I've gotten over the fear of throwing all my chips in with what might be the second best hand with outs. But I have difficultly doing the opposite (i.e., putting in a "proper-sized" raise and letting them make a bad call). As a result, I push too much and get into "win small, lose big" situations.

[dfscott]

[ QUOTE ]
510 chips means raise this preflop IMO.

As for in this spot on the flop I throw back a minraise and call an all-in HU but not 3way. If I am cold called I push the turn with no ace and no club.

[/ QUOTE ]

I considered this, but I didn't like my position -- with another limper I probably would've done it, just to make the pot worth stealing.

[Scuba Chuck]

Due to the size of your stack at this stage of the game, I'd raise some preflop, at least a mini-raise, build this pot. If you miss, and you fold post flop, no worries. But as it is, I'd like to have a decent sized pot to try and take down.

On the flop. I think the word "push" should cross your mind, but the pot is so small. Whatever you do, don't raise an amount that's too small. Raise an amount that looks like you're trying to 'buy' the pot, so you get some looney with A9 to push you allin. I think a little more than 2 x pot should do the trick. Maybe 200-225 raise. Whatever happens before the turn, you should welcome an allin. I wouldn't be surprised if you get played with hands like TT, 77, 66, A9, 9T, and two clubs.

On the turn, if you're called with that big of a raise, the only tricky card for you will be a club, don't worry about overcards.

[pooh74]

yeah i cant believe this thread got so many replies before raising pf came up...I understand the aversion to JJ around here, but cmon...

[Raemius]

I think I would have raised 4-5x BB pre-flop to thin the field. If bet into post flop, I would definitely raise. If called, you're watching for the next club. /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[1C5]

I used to call here early with JJ but from now on I do raise with JJ+ from any position and limp with TT and below from early position and play those mostly for set value.

[Scuba Chuck]

[ QUOTE ]
I used to call here early with JJ but from now on I do raise with JJ+ from any position and limp with TT and below from early position and play those mostly for set value.



[/ QUOTE ]

FWIW, this advice I'm recommending has more to do with his stacksize than anything else.

If I get JJ on level 1, and it's just limped around, I usually make it 2xBB (or 3), to build a pot. I don't mind getting away from it if I don't feel solid postflop. But in general, I'd recommend playing this hand, the same way you'd play 99 with a full stack.

[pooh74]

[ QUOTE ]
I used to call here early with JJ but from now on I do raise with JJ+ from any position and limp with TT and below from early position and play those mostly for set value.

[/ QUOTE ]

I like this too...might as well limp AK here while we're at it. Playing JJ for set value reeks of weak post flop play...Might as well have a bot playing for ya.

[1C5]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I used to call here early with JJ but from now on I do raise with JJ+ from any position and limp with TT and below from early position and play those mostly for set value.



[/ QUOTE ]

FWIW, this advice I'm recommending has more to do with his stacksize than anything else.

If I get JJ on level 1, and it's just limped around, I usually make it 2xBB (or 3), to build a pot. I don't mind getting away from it if I don't feel solid postflop. But in general, I'd recommend playing this hand, the same way you'd play 99 with a full stack.

[/ QUOTE ]

I used to play JJ like 99 also (for set value) but after reading HOH again, I now raise JJ from anywhere.

[1C5]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I used to call here early with JJ but from now on I do raise with JJ+ from any position and limp with TT and below from early position and play those mostly for set value.

[/ QUOTE ]

I like this too...might as well limp AK here while we're at it. Playing JJ for set value reeks of weak post flop play...Might as well have a bot playing for ya.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agree, some people also limp with AK but not me.

[Scuba Chuck]

[ QUOTE ]
I used to play JJ like 99 also (for set value) but after reading HOH again, I now raise JJ from anywhere.

[/ QUOTE ]

How are you playing it postflop?

How are you playing if you are reraised? and/or reraised allin?

[1C5]

Well it depends how many people are in the pot with me and how many overcards fell and what the board looks like. I can't give you an answer as to how I play it. It varies everytime. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[1C5]

For example, if the flop is T 3 6 rags and someone pushes, easy call for me. Flop is AQ7, it is obviously an easy fold.

[1C5]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I used to play JJ like 99 also (for set value) but after reading HOH again, I now raise JJ from anywhere.

[/ QUOTE ]

How are you playing it postflop?

How are you playing if you are reraised? and/or reraised allin?

[/ QUOTE ]

I will call a reraise of a reasonable amount and then fold to an all in if the flop is ugly.

Early I would fold to an all in raise PF.

[Scuba Chuck]

The reason I ask is, as you build a pot, it makes it harder for others to let it go. But I get a sense you play it the same you you'd play AK. If you raise, and it's pushed, you're folding. If the texture of the flop has no benefits you're folding. I see your point. No further explanation needed.

FWIW, as I've moved up, I'm getting a lot of "calls" with QQ and KK when I raise. I now see why McEvoy said they used to call QQ "baby pairs."

Scuba

[1C5]

That is interesting, calls with QQ and KK. I will often lose my stack to those hands then.

[Scuba Chuck]

[ QUOTE ]
That is interesting, calls with QQ and KK. I will often lose my stack to those hands then.


[/ QUOTE ]

That's the only reason why I remember 'em.