too tricky for my own good?

[gumpzilla]

I'm already anticipating the answers.

PokerStars $10+1, blinds are 15/30.
I have 590 in chips due to some probably unadvisable horsing around with TT. Villain in this hand has 1110. Eight handed.

I pick up 55 in the BB. UTG is the villain, he limps, there are two other limpers, the SB completes, I check.

*** FLOP *** (pot = 150) [8 /images/graemlins/club.gif 8 /images/graemlins/spade.gif 2 /images/graemlins/heart.gif]
Checked to UTG, who bets 90. Folded to me, I call.
*** TURN *** pot = 330 4 /images/graemlins/spade.gif
I push.

?

[Patrick Duffy]

i like it.

but then again, i play the $6s, and utg limped with 86s

easy with the aggression, chief...

[pshreck]

Push on the flop.

[gumpzilla]

[ QUOTE ]
Push on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't like this line one bit, unless you mean c/r'ing all in, in which case it might have some merit. This play will get me crushed by an 8 if it's out there (there are 3 people yet to act after me, not to mention the possibility that SB is sandbagging) and will probably not move 66 or 77, for example. By contrast, I think my line fixes both of these problems, or is at least better at fixing them.

[pshreck]

I would actually fold.

I just thought saying push on the flop would be interesting.

Way too much thinking though on your part. There are a bunch of people in the pot, you have 55 and didnt hit a set. Be gone.

Notice how you first lost a ton of chips with 10s (you probably over played them) and now you are again getting involved in a multiway pot with a weak hand. This a leak perhaps? SNG's are not this complicated. Do more folding in situations like this.

[gumpzilla]

[ QUOTE ]
I would actually fold.

I just thought saying push on the flop would be interesting.

[/ QUOTE ]

Awesome. Sweet advice.

[ QUOTE ]

Way too much thinking though on your part.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's cool, I like thinking. If you don't, just motor back to OOT.

[ QUOTE ]
There are a bunch of people in the pot, you have 55 and didnt hit a set. Be gone.

[/ QUOTE ]

By the time it gets back to me, there's one other person in the pot, and what hands do you put him on? This is a $10, so there's obviously a limit to how much rationality one can expect, but he is not betting an 8 this way if he's like almost all low buy-in players I've encountered, and so the range of holdings that he can have that I'm behind is quite small - 66,77. I think he would have raised 99+ preflop, probably. The point of just calling at this point and pushing on the turn was to look as much like an 8 as possible. He called with A3 spades for the flush and gutshot wheel draw on the river and blanked out. The fact that he called with such a holding suggests to me that the big flaw in my plan was thinking that I could be scary enough representing an 8 to get him to fold anything. At the 20s on Paradise, which was where I'd been cutting my teeth before, I think this play works more successfully.

[ QUOTE ]
Notice how you first lost a ton of chips with 10s (you probably over played them) and now you are again getting involved in a multiway pot with a weak hand. This a leak perhaps? SNG's are not this complicated. Do more folding in situations like this.

[/ QUOTE ]

The pot with the 10s the flop came 7 9 J, two-tone. I took a shot at it, since I'd raised PF, took another when the turn came Q to give me four more straight outs and a chance at scaring off any J that came along, and got moved in on when an A came on the river, also completing the flush. I folded at that point and still had 600 chips or so. Is it great SNG strategy? No, probably not, but I think it's worth pointing out that this is at Stars, where I have a lot more leeway to make plays like this. My sample size is very small still, but we've consistently been getting to the money with an average stack that is 30 BBs deep. I don't have to sit stock still for the first 30 minutes as a result.

[pshreck]

[ QUOTE ]


Way too much thinking though on your part.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's cool, I like thinking. If you don't, just motor back to OOT.


[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry, but Im a strong believer that a skill in SNG's is learning how to force yourself not to think, to not put yourself in situations where you have to.

I stand by my thought that you shouldnt be putting yourself in these situations, because quite simply you dont need to.

[gumpzilla]

[ QUOTE ]

Sorry, but Im a strong believer that a skill in SNG's is learning how to force yourself not to think, to not put yourself in situations where you have to.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't see how it can possibly be to your advantage to not think, unless your thinking is wrong. Long term, I'd much rather make a couple of minor mistakes in SNGs but be able to think clearly about a wide range of poker situations, but that's just me and my interests. Having a system where you don't need to think might be very nice if you're trying to grind out 4+ tables, but since I'm playing 2 at the moment since this is entirely recreational for me, I'd rather think and have fun.

As for not getting myself into these situations: it was checked to me in the BB, and after the flop action, I'm now in a situation where I think I have the best hand probably 80% of the time based on what I've seen. It's a situation I'd happily get myself into again. Survival's great and all, and dodging marginal situations is good, but I really don't think this situation is marginal.

[stupidsucker]

fold for the 90..

if you absolutly must play it then pushing the flop is better than cold calling for a card. On the turn here a CR-push is better then a cold push IMO as well... but I never let it get that far.

[TheCat]

You have no hand and no draw an opponent has shown some strength. This is as clear a fold as you can get.
Remember "No set no bet" it will serve you well.
Wait until you playing in the $200 dollar SnG before making any tricky moves, then don't make them anyway. You much, much better off avoiding these sort of plays as it usually ends in tears. Sometimes you get away with it but mostly they will call you down with any old rubbish.

[Pepsquad]

[ QUOTE ]
fold for the 90..

if you absolutly must play it then pushing the flop is better than cold calling for a card. On the turn here a CR-push is better then a cold push IMO as well... but I never let it get that far.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. If you absolutely must continue with this hand, don't open push the turn, c/r all-in. Open-pushing just represents the very hand you have (ie - a weak, made hand that is trying to knock out a *possibly* stronger weak hand). FWIW, I fold.

[prunch]

patrick Duffy by any chance r u irish??? I thought I was d only paddy on this website

[RagleGumm]

i'm a super beginner, but i would either fold to the 90 bet or push PF.

i'd rather want the caller to contemplate whether to call PF then me seeing a scary flop and be obliged to fold.

but hey, that's me.

[Unarmed]

[ QUOTE ]
or push PF.


[/ QUOTE ]

Shhh... stop giving good advice rookie /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[gumpzilla]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
or push PF.


[/ QUOTE ]

Shhh... stop giving good advice rookie /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

You like pushing with 55 with a stack that's 18-19 BBs deep? Really?

[Nottom]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't like this line one bit, unless you mean c/r'ing all in, in which case it might have some merit. This play will get me crushed by an 8 if it's out there (there are 3 people yet to act after me, not to mention the possibility that SB is sandbagging) and will probably not move 66 or 77, for example. By contrast, I think my line fixes both of these problems, or is at least better at fixing them.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think your line has the same problmes since that 4 did nothing to change anything. Your line just gives you a bit of insurance agaisnt overcards calling.

[Nottom]

[ QUOTE ]
I agree. If you absolutely must continue with this hand, don't open push the turn, c/r all-in. Open-pushing just represents the very hand you have (ie - a weak, made hand that is trying to knock out a *possibly* stronger weak hand). FWIW, I fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think there is a near-zero chance of a better hand folding no matter what he does. Checking raising the turn is bad since overcards will take a free card and any hand that does bet is likely pot committed. Open pushing might be a dead giveaway as to what he has, but basically Hero is hoping they have overcards and will have to fold anyway.

[gumpzilla]

So let me pose you a question: how do you react when you bet at a paired board, get smoothcalled, and then that player leads out later? I'm happy to acknowledge that it's probably wrong to assume too much thought on my opponents part, but against many players, I think this is going to look intimidating.

But I'll reiterate my other claim: I really, really think I'm ahead here on the flop and turn a LOT of the time. So why not check the turn again and let him hang himself? I deemed it unlikely he'd bet again, and it was going to be hard for me to play aggressively with lots of rivers, since he could be horsing around with two overcards, and it's hard to know which two. So I figured I'd push to discourage him from seeing another card and take the pot down right there, while being reasonably confident that if I was called, I would have the best hand.

There are tons of things that would have changed how I played this hand: if the board comes 88J, I'm not doing this; if any of the other limpers had called, I'm not doing this; if it's checked around on the flop, I'm not doing this; if the turn's another 2, I'm not doing this, etc.
Would it have been a huge error to fold the flop? Probably not. But I also don't think it was an error to play on there.

[pooh74]

[ QUOTE ]
So let me pose you a question: how do you react when you bet at a paired board, get smoothcalled, and then that player leads out later? I'm happy to acknowledge that it's probably wrong to assume too much thought on my opponents part, but against many players, I think this is going to look intimidating.

But I'll reiterate my other claim: I really, really think I'm ahead here on the flop and turn a LOT of the time. So why not check the turn again and let him hang himself? I deemed it unlikely he'd bet again, and it was going to be hard for me to play aggressively with lots of rivers, since he could be horsing around with two overcards, and it's hard to know which two. So I figured I'd push to discourage him from seeing another card and take the pot down right there, while being reasonably confident that if I was called, I would have the best hand.

There are tons of things that would have changed how I played this hand: if the board comes 88J, I'm not doing this; if any of the other limpers had called, I'm not doing this; if it's checked around on the flop, I'm not doing this; if the turn's another 2, I'm not doing this, etc.
Would it have been a huge error to fold the flop? Probably not. But I also don't think it was an error to play on there.

[/ QUOTE ]

dont feel so bad...fwiw, Im betting this turn hard in your shoes...im not afraid of this board and those who are are just playing scared...

The only thing that may allow me to give UTG credit is the fact he is betting with 1 more left to act on the flop? (very hard to tell from your "hand history" there). He also limps UTG which is very indicative of a PP med to small...also KQ/KJ...id say you're about 60% ahead here, but like i said, this flop and turn is perfect...and with <t500 left, im taking some risks. (although i do relaize this is a PS 10+1 which means youll have many opportunites left).

Ok, basically, I think the hand played out as though its a 50/50 (fold push) so I would defer to my read on villain and his prior play up til now. That's the rub.

p

[gumpzilla]

[ QUOTE ]

dont feel so bad...fwiw, Im betting this turn hard in your shoes...im not afraid of this board and those who are are just playing scared...

[/ QUOTE ]

I wouldn't say I feel bad; I was expecting this kind of response. I'm curious what the people who are clamoring for a fold think is lurking out there to get me in this case. Do people disagree with my statement that few $10 players are going to play flopped trips this way? Do people disagree with my statement that if he has an overpair to this board, I most likely would have already known that from his preflop action?

[ QUOTE ]

He also limps UTG which is very indicative of a PP med to small...

[/ QUOTE ]

If I'd had an impression that this were a particularly solid player, I might be inclined to agree with you, but I think that at low levels - unless a player has convinced me that he's at least pretty capable - I don't put much stock in where they're playing from, because I don't assume that they know much about position. Perhaps this is an error.

[pooh74]

Do people disagree with my statement that few $10 players are going to play flopped trips this way?

Not sure this is all of it..its this, combined with the probability that ur behind a bigger PP. Like i said though, if I was in your shoes, id play this strong too...just might've CR'd pushed the flop instead.

[gumpzilla]

[ QUOTE ]

Not sure this is all of it..its this, combined with the probability that ur behind a bigger PP.

[/ QUOTE ]

66 or 77 are the only ones I think are realistic here, and I think he's going to have a wide enough range of overcard hands in there as well that I'm going to come up against these rarely.

[ QUOTE ]
Like i said though, if I was in your shoes, id play this strong too...just might've CR'd pushed the flop instead.

[/ QUOTE ]

Check-pushing the flop might have been better. Somebody else suggested check-pushing the turn, which I think I'd like best of all if I'd thought UTG would bet again, but I wasn't very confident in that.

[Unarmed]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
or push PF.


[/ QUOTE ]

Shhh... stop giving good advice rookie /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

You like pushing with 55 with a stack that's 18-19 BBs deep? Really?

[/ QUOTE ]

Really.
There's 150 in the pot.
Hero has 560 after positing. (which is awfully short on Stars considering starting stacks are 1500)

A level 2 limp at this level means the player has been dealt two cars and has a pulse, therefore hero almost certainly has the best hand.

Hero is closing the action.
Pushing eliminates positional disadvantage.
Pushing will pick up the dead money a good % of the time and when it doesn't, hero can race and attempt to get his stack back to a workable level.

[gumpzilla]

[ QUOTE ]

Really.
There's 150 in the pot.
Hero has 560 after positing. (which is awfully short on Stars considering starting stacks are 1500)

[/ QUOTE ]

But it's 18 BBs! It's not even <10 BBs at the next level. I'm going to have some time here; I don't think I'm super desperate to pump my stack right now.

[ QUOTE ]

Hero is closing the action.
Pushing eliminates positional disadvantage.
Pushing will pick up the dead money a good % of the time and when it doesn't, hero can race and attempt to get his stack back to a workable level.

[/ QUOTE ]

All interesting points, but I think taking a free flop and looking for a set, where I probably double up, is an attractive option as well. If I felt that pushing would take it down every time here, then pushing would be better, as I don't have enough behind to make flopping the set more profitable than winning that 150 every time. But with four limpers, I think 66-88 are all possible hands that crush me, and I'm not entirely sure what I'm capable of moving people off of preflop here - am I getting called with QJs because my push looks like somebody trying to defend a weak hand? So I don't think that's clear cut.

I'm also vaguely concerned about what happens when I push in a situation like this and then go back to making more normally sized raises. One or the other seems likely to me to not get much respect after that, and that's not what I want.

[pooh74]

[ QUOTE ]


66 or 77 are the only ones I think are realistic here, and I think he's going to have a wide enough range of overcard hands in there as well that I'm going to come up against these rarely.

Check-pushing the flop might have been better. Somebody else suggested check-pushing the turn, which I think I'd like best of all if I'd thought UTG would bet again, but I wasn't very confident in that.

[/ QUOTE ]

1. I agree, over pairs to 88 and 66-77 arent a huge concern as to advocate changing your line here i guess.

2. CR turn is good now...wouldve done it on the flop though.

[Unarmed]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think I'm super desperate to pump my stack right now.

[/ QUOTE ]

Neither is anyone else who innocently limped into you. 150 chips are there for you. Take them.

To your 66-88/QJs/... concerns.

Assume a limper is solid. Name a hand that he will limp/call a 560 chip push with.

Assume limper sucks. There is a good chance they raise overpairs to my 55 so I'm not overly concerned with that issue. If they're the type to limp call a 560 raise with QJs they're the type that'll do it with A2 as well.

Even if if there is a zero percent chance I get shown a hand I'm way ahead of (like A2) I'll still shove because I simply don't mind a race at this point.

[gumpzilla]

[ QUOTE ]

Even if if there is a zero percent chance I get shown a hand I'm way ahead of (like A2) I'll still shove because I simply don't mind a race at this point.

[/ QUOTE ]

Again, these are interesting points, but I'm not sold that the expectation of pushing here outweighs the expectation of taking the free flop.

[Unarmed]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Even if if there is a zero percent chance I get shown a hand I'm way ahead of (like A2) I'll still shove because I simply don't mind a race at this point.

[/ QUOTE ]

Again, these are interesting points, but I'm not sold that the expectation of pushing here outweighs the expectation of taking the free flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're making your decision.
UTG flips up AK and says I will call you if you push.
Everyone else faints so you know you'll be heads up.

I push this everytime.
Do you?

I agree the overpair issue is a concern but the odds of someone:

1) having an overpair
2) not already raising it
3) subequently calling your push

are pretty low IMO.