non-nut flush gets minraised on the turn... your action is?

[MisterKing]

Primary villian is 40/20/1.3 and hasn't shown me anything too fancy as yet at the table (about 50 hands played thurs far). Since the rest of the table leaned passive (thus my PF raise), I decided to semibluff the flop to see if I could take it right there... this was working far more often than it should have. I'm pretty sure MHIG at the turn, but what's your reaction to villian's minraise?

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (6 max, 9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

saw flop|<font color="#C00000">saw showdown</font>

MP2 ($111.83)
<font color="#C00000">Hero ($102.05)</font>
CO ($133.4)
<font color="#C00000">Button ($220.85)</font>
SB ($53)
BB ($198.77)
UTG ($113.65)
UTG+1 ($61)
MP1 ($114)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif. SB posts a blind of $0.5.
UTG calls $1, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP1 calls $1, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $3</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises to $5</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, BB calls $4, UTG folds, MP1 calls $4, Hero calls $2.

Flop: ($21.50) 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 3/images/graemlins/club.gif, 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 bets $3</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $10</font>, Button calls $10, BB calls $10, MP1 calls $7.

Turn: ($61.50) Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
BB checks, MP1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $25</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises to $50</font>, BB folds, MP1 folds, Hero calls $25.

River: ($161.50) 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, Button checks.

Final Pot: $161.50

[PoBoy321]

I think that not value betting this river is criminal.

You'll see a lower flush, straight, 2 pair, set, hell even A /images/graemlins/diamond.gifQx WAY too often for it to be wrong.

[bigt439]

What are the players like in that 6-max, 9-handed game? Sounds like there's some cheatin going on. As for the hand I'm sorry to say I don't like any of your streets very much. Preflop is bizarre. I'm not really sure what you're trying to accomplish with a raise to 3, because that takes down the blinds with 2 limpers almost 0% of the time (seriously I'm not being sarcastic). Building a pot is probably not ideal as you're going to face more money for your draws (granted its proportional, but the deeper the stacks in relation to the pot the greater the implied odds, and you like those with suited connectors). So preflop is bad, but we'll move on. Your reraise on the flop is not a very good play. You are pricing in so many hands it's ridiculous, raise 4/5 to full pot here if you decide to take a stab. I call though, but thats just me. On the turn you are going to the felt with this hand (whether its a good or a bad thing, and it may be a bad thing - another reaons for not bloating the pot with your pf and f raise, but again those raises can sometimes be good if they're the right amount). I like that you come out betting, but bet a little more, because you're committed to this hand. Try 2/3 of the pot. On the river you're not folding to an allin, and I doubt there's a higher chance he'll bet it with a worse hand than there is he'll call it with one, so shove em in. I don't mean to rip on you, or anything, but just some contructive criticism.

[Richie Rich]

The fact that you raised J /images/graemlins/diamond.gifT /images/graemlins/diamond.gif (a suited connector that plays best in a multi-way pot) from middle position, before-the-flop, is bad enough to conceal the true purpose of the original post: to analyze your post-flop play.

Nevertheless, while your post-flop was basic, you made one critical mistake: you only called his min-raise on the turn. When button min-raised you, there was already roughly $135 in the pot, and you had about $60 behind. This is the critical part of the hand where you should've decided if you were all-in or not. If you were confident with the third nut flush, then push; if not, then fold. Calling was the worst move for several reasons: (1) after calling the min-raise bet on the turn, you only have $35 left...would you really fold to his push on the river when you're getting better than 6:1? &amp; (2) if you didn't fold on the turn, then you might as well commit him to the pot as well (since you're already committed to it)...that way, you don't let his min-raise on the turn serve as what-turned-out-to-be a "blocking bet" on the river for either: (a) his slowplayed set, (b) A /images/graemlins/diamond.gif Q-x, or (c) potentially, but not likely, smaller flush.

[steaknshake925]

nice post, agree with most everything above.

preflop: MP3 after 2 limpers is not the best place to get tricky with suited connectors, but no big deal.

flop: if u want to "take it down" right here you need to raise more. i would just call since its pretty cheap and u got all those people left to act behind u. but still, not a big mistake.

turn: given ur read that YHIG, u have to push to villains minraise. u need to get the money in before the river-- there are many cards that could kill ur action. not pushing here is a big, stack-sized mistake.

river: shouldnt be a concern b/c the money shoulda gone in on the turn, but given ur turn call, push the river.

[MisterKing]

[ QUOTE ]
The fact that you raised J /images/graemlins/diamond.gifT /images/graemlins/diamond.gif (a suited connector that plays best in a multi-way pot) from middle position, before-the-flop, is bad enough to conceal the true purpose of the original post: to analyze your post-flop play.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd generally agree with you that raising JTs in MP is a terrible idea, but as I tried to indicate above the play was so passive, and so poor that I could (extremely) often win the hand then and there with this raise. Additionally, I think there is some merit to playing in a small raised pot with this hand -- limping can get you in trouble when the blinds flop well and you can't put them on a hand.

[ QUOTE ]
Nevertheless, while your post-flop was basic, you made one critical mistake: you only called his min-raise on the turn. When button min-raised you, there was already roughly $135 in the pot, and you had about $60 behind. This is the critical part of the hand where you should've decided if you were all-in or not. If you were confident with the third nut flush, then push; if not, then fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is exactly the kind of input I was looking for, and I suspected pushing was right but couldn't summon the will to do it. I suppose the refined NL player does so without thinking twice -- afterall that's why he/she paid to get to the turn... to make the flush. One additional question: what's your response if villian pushes here? And are you taking into account the character of the opponent (hint: you should be... look again at the stats I posted. Too many 2+2 NL players fail to think about this).

[ QUOTE ]
Calling was the worst move for several reasons: (1) after calling the min-raise bet on the turn, you only have $35 left...would you really fold to his push on the river when you're getting better than 6:1? &amp; (2) if you didn't fold on the turn, then you might as well commit him to the pot as well (since you're already committed to it)...that way, you don't let his min-raise on the turn serve as what-turned-out-to-be a "blocking bet" on the river for either: (a) his slowplayed set, (b) A /images/graemlins/diamond.gif Q-x, or (c) potentially, but not likely, smaller flush.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yep, I think Ad is the card I need to worry about most, or perhaps a set. Either way, lots of bad things happen on the river so I'd prefer to be all in or all out at that point. Thanks again.

[Los Feliz Slim]

To reiterate, JT suited is a drawing hand (the BEST drawing hand) and you want MORE people in, not less. So we're all in agreement that the PF raise was wrong - even though you might take down the pot right there with several limpers and a tiny raise (what game is this?) you don't really want that to happen, especially against a laggy opponent.

Obviously, you have to push the turn, you don't have enough left behind to do anything else other than fold, which you just can't do against these players.

If Villain pushes, you absolutely take Villain's character into account (but you really need one hell of a read to muck it at this point). BUT, don't overvalue information you've got on the guy over 50 hands. This information could be completely meaningless. I think this is the danger of GT+, people think it's telling you what the other guy's going to do. Even bad players hit cards.

[MisterKing]

[ QUOTE ]
To reiterate, JT suited is a drawing hand (the BEST drawing hand) and you want MORE people in, not less. So we're all in agreement that the PF raise was wrong - even though you might take down the pot right there with several limpers and a tiny raise (what game is this?) you don't really want that to happen, especially against a laggy opponent.

[/ QUOTE ]

I hear you, but I'm going to have to strongly disagree with your last comment that "you really don't want this to happen." According to a a wise poker sage (Abdul Jalib of PosEV Poker (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.gambling.poker/msg/1b218ac3ae7bd940)), "Most hands are worth less than the blinds and so for most hands stealing the blinds is a coup." This definitely applies to hands like JTs, which have a positive EV, but one of much less than the blinds. So taking the pot down pre-flop after limpers is a definite win.

Beyond this reason, there are meta-game considerations and such. I want to mix up my range of raising hands to prevent other players from (correctly) folding against most of my raises and playing back only with monsters. Adding JTs in occasionally accomplishes this. As Abdul says: "Without other concerns, in a tight game you should raise with marginal hands, and limp (and usually reraise if raised) with your strongest hands. This advice contradicts Sklansky and Malmuth. Balance your hands that you could have in various preflop scenarios, mixing strong with weak and weak with strong, so that you do not give too much information away by your actions, yet strive to still play most hands appropriately." Its worth noting that my table was not necessarily tight, but it was weak and passive. This is not the norm in Party NL$100, but it was undeniably true for my table when this hand was played. Situational reads matter, and inflexible rules like "JTs is not a raising hand" will not get optimal payoff in the long run.

[ QUOTE ]
Obviously, you have to push the turn, you don't have enough left behind to do anything else other than fold, which you just can't do against these players.

If Villain pushes, you absolutely take Villain's character into account (but you really need one hell of a read to muck it at this point). BUT, don't overvalue information you've got on the guy over 50 hands. This information could be completely meaningless. I think this is the danger of GT+, people think it's telling you what the other guy's going to do. Even bad players hit cards.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed that 50 hands in PT/PlayerView is not enough to fold. A larger sample might provide some interesting info, though. Thanks for your turn/river input -- I really need to grow a spine here and just be willingness to push when I think MHIG.

[swolfe]

you didn't raise the flop enough for a semi-bluff...you should have made it $30 at least...

you should also have raise more preflop (if you're going to raise this)...unless your standard raise with AA after 2 limpers is also only 3BB...

[MisterKing]

[ QUOTE ]
you didn't raise the flop enough for a semi-bluff...you should have made it $30 at least...

you should also have raise more preflop (if you're going to raise this)...unless your standard raise with AA after 2 limpers is also only 3BB...

[/ QUOTE ]

True. I was getting cute with the smaller raise, and shouldn't have. My normal PF raise, which I think is similar to most 2+2, is 4BB + 0.5BB per limper. I will sometimes scale this up or down just a hare to induce or dissuade action from certain types of opponents.