Line 1, 2 or 3? [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

scotty34

04-12-2005, 07:00 PM

CO had just sat down at the table, and I have no previous data on him.

Line 1:

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif. CO posts a blind of $2.
1 fold, Hero raises, 4 folds, CO (poster) calls, 2 folds, BB calls.

Flop: (6.50 SB) 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif, T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, T/images/graemlins/heart.gif (3 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, CO raises, BB folds, Hero 3-bets, CO calls.

Turn: (6.25 BB) 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
Hero bets...

 3-bet the flop to see where you are standing, with the intention of calling down if capped, and continuing aggression if not. 

Line 2:

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif. CO posts a blind of $2.
1 fold, Hero raises, 4 folds, CO (poster) calls, 2 folds, BB calls.

Flop: (6.50 SB) 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif, T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, T/images/graemlins/heart.gif (3 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, CO raises, BB folds, Hero calls.

Turn: (5.25 BB) 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets, Hero calls.

River: (7.25 BB) 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
Hero bets...

 An application of the call-call-bet line with the intention of calling a river raise. 

Line 3:

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif. CO posts a blind of $2.
1 fold, Hero raises, 4 folds, CO (poster) calls, 2 folds, BB calls.

Flop: (6.50 SB) 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif, T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, T/images/graemlins/heart.gif (3 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, CO raises, BB folds, Hero calls.

Turn: (5.25 BB) 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets, Hero raises.

 Call the flop and C/R the turn. If you pick this line, do you call down or fold to a 3-bet? 

So folks, which line do you prefer and why? If you pick other, explain.

Shillx

04-12-2005, 07:13 PM

Wow line two is terrible terrible terrible. Line three is better but still not optimal imo.

Let's take a closer look at line 2:

When the villian raises the flop we can assume that he has either a ten, a pocket pair or a flush draw (and maybe a stone bluff). After he bets the turn we can discount the draw somewhat but a turn bet with a flush draw on his part still might be correct if we will fold a hand like AK. So let's say that he will always bet the turn with a flush draw. Now onto the river play:

If he has trips or better - Well betting does you no good since he will raise and now you are paying two bets when you could have check/called for a single bet.

Flush Draw - He isn't going to call with a busted flush draw. You should have checked with hopes that he bluffs again.

Stone Bluff - Again he will fold to a bet so check and hope that he bluffs again.

Pocket Pair - He might bet again if you check to him and he might check. He will surely call you with it so betting is somewhat better in this case. All is not lost by checking and calling though as he still might value bet a good pair like 99 or 88.

The verdict: Check and call this river after check/calling the turn. Betting is wrong in just about every case unless he has a small pair and check/calling against the small pair is a small mistake at that since he might bet it again.

I would use line 1 FWIW. Line 3 is 2nd best but checking to him on the turn is too risky imo. Line 2 is bad news as stated above.

Brad

scotty34

04-12-2005, 07:23 PM

After reading this, I definetly agree. I guess I really didn't think line 2 through well enough before coming up with it. It seemed reasonable when I first thought it up, but you are right, it is clearly wrong.

Edit: How about checking the River and raising there if he bets one more time? This one is probably getting quite far-fetched as it assumes that he is going to bet the river. If it works however, it will collect the maximum amount of bets. However, you will also lose the maximum amount of bets if your hand is not good. Also, if he does not bet the river, you feel you lost a lot of value from the hand.

k000k

04-12-2005, 08:22 PM

I voted for line 1, cuz any line that doesn't involve 3-betting that flops is weak IMO..

scotty34

04-12-2005, 08:27 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I voted for line 1, cuz any line that doesn't involve 3-betting that flops is weak IMO..

[/ QUOTE ]

The reason for not 3-betting the flop is not because you are scared at this point, it is because you want him to put as much money as possible in the pot. If he was bluffing, chances are he is folding the turn for one more bet.

The board is pretty uncoordinated, except for a heart draw. A small PP is a possibility, in which case he would call down. I think more often than not though, this is just a complete bluff, with A high or something to that effect. We do not want him folding here. I'm trying to find the line that would, more often than not, get the most chips out of your opponent (and lose you the least if he does have the T).

Edit: Oooh I'm an old hand now. Damn I had this huge, amazing essay that I was going to post as my 700th, but since I missed it, I guess I can just scrap it now.