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View Full Version : AJs in the BB to small blind push on bubble..


raptor517
04-12-2005, 06:59 PM
***** Hand History for Game 1885479512 *****
NL Hold'em $100 Buy-in + $9 Entry Fee Trny:11244674 Level:6 Blinds(150/300) - Tuesday, April 12, 18:43:45 EDT 2005
Table Table 11950 (Real Money)
Seat 6 is the button
Total number of players : 4
Seat 1: Bebop86 ( $2775 )
Seat 3: TZoidpro ( $1450 )
Seat 6: AcesAbout ( $3105 )
Seat 9: ceomatuse ( $2670 )
Trny:11244674 Level:6
Blinds(150/300)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Bebop86 [ Jd Ad ]
TZoidpro folds.
AcesAbout folds.
ceomatuse is all-In [2520]
Bebop86 ???

fold or call? what is the correct play?

curtains
04-12-2005, 07:09 PM
If eastbays program says to fold here, Im folding. (and it does). Even when we win over 60% its bad to call.

curtains
04-12-2005, 07:10 PM
Basically what this means is that if you are playing raptor here, go allin every single hand.

XChamp
04-12-2005, 07:11 PM
Where can I get eastbay's program?

prepotency
04-12-2005, 07:15 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Where can I get eastbay's program?

[/ QUOTE ]

Ditto - also, where can Aleo's guide be found (running searches now)

NegativeEV
04-12-2005, 07:17 PM
I assume you wouldn't post it unless you thought it was close. What makes it close?

No read easy fold.

citanul
04-12-2005, 07:19 PM
i think there's a link to eastbay's thing in his profile. it's at something like sng-analyzer.com

aleo has asked that we stop linking around to the guide. until the new faq is out, heh, i'm going to respect that /images/graemlins/smile.gif people can find it themselves, if they want it, since it's really not hard to find.

citanul

john_
04-12-2005, 07:21 PM
But if raptor knew you would all in with any 2, then calling with AJs here is positive EV.

The once and future king
04-12-2005, 07:25 PM
These questions are in many ways meaningless.

1. If he has been pushing alot and/or has demonstrated aggresive tendencies = Call

2. If none of the above = Fold.

Need more information or otherwise the actual awnser is: Depends. Which as answer is not seen enough in these forums imho.

NegativeEV
04-12-2005, 07:28 PM
[ QUOTE ]
But if raptor knew you would all in with any 2, then calling with AJs here is positive EV.

[/ QUOTE ]

If villian pushes any two (and Hero knows this) it is close. Hero needs to win > 64% to make a call ICM correct here. I haven't run pokerstove, but AJs is pretty close to 64% vs. random hand if I recall. If villian pushes any two, Hero may be correct to call, but not because the math is compelling........

prepotency
04-12-2005, 07:32 PM
[ QUOTE ]
i think there's a link to eastbay's thing in his profile. it's at something like sng-analyzer.com

aleo has asked that we stop linking around to the guide. until the new faq is out, heh, i'm going to respect that /images/graemlins/smile.gif people can find it themselves, if they want it, since it's really not hard to find.

citanul

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks!

john_
04-12-2005, 07:33 PM
Math supports call against a "any hand" push range. AJs wins 65.4% of the time against a random hand according to eastbay's calculator.

It's worth noting even against the "any hand" push range you're only gaining about 1% EV. I normally would not make this call.

BradleyT
04-12-2005, 07:35 PM
Probably a coinflip and I'm sure you're ITM is higher than 50% with 4 players on the bubble with the 2nd biggest stack....Don't you think you can find a better spot than this to get all your chips in?

Winning his chips is nice, losing your chips is a catastrophe.

raptor517
04-12-2005, 07:42 PM
for the record, i autofolded this hand and won the tournament. i KNOW the villain was pushing any 2, but it didnt matter. my skill edge on the bubble is worth way more than a toss up between call and fold. ill take that any day. holla

The Yugoslavian
04-12-2005, 07:49 PM
Raptor must fold here.
Pushing with FE next hand
As Wtf_pwned!

You fold here. Unless you know something about the villian (or perhaps other players) that you're not sharing (such as pushing with any two, etc).

Yugoslav

john_
04-12-2005, 07:50 PM
That sounds pretty results oriented...

What hand do you need to debate calling in this spot? Given your calling range he's definitely getting positive EV to push with any 2. Plus having him on your left isn't exactly best for future bubble stealing.

raptor517
04-12-2005, 08:10 PM
explain how this is results oriented. and yes, this is super +ev for him to push any 2, and i dont really care. thats the beauty of being agressive on the bubble. you can make people fold. the best players are pushing EVERY 2 cards there, EVERY single time. period. and im still folding that even if i know he has 23. holla.

john_
04-12-2005, 08:34 PM
[ QUOTE ]
explain how this is results oriented.

[/ QUOTE ]

"for the record, i autofolded this hand and won the tournament."

[ QUOTE ]
and yes, this is super +ev for him to push any 2, and i dont really care. thats the beauty of being agressive on the bubble. you can make people fold. the best players are pushing EVERY 2 cards there, EVERY single time. period. and im still folding that even if i know he has 23. holla.

[/ QUOTE ]

He acts before you 3/4 hands, when are you going to be able to get your money into the pot when he's being aggressive raising every hand before you?

raptor517
04-12-2005, 09:00 PM
you know what? im wrong, just keep calling there. keep crushing those 10+1s /images/graemlins/wink.gif holla

NegativeEV
04-12-2005, 09:18 PM
[ QUOTE ]
He acts before you 3/4 hands, when are you going to be able to get your money into the pot when he's being aggressive raising every hand before you?

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
you know what? im wrong, just keep calling there. keep crushing those 10+1s holla

[/ QUOTE ]

The abilities/tendancies of the player positioned immediately before you should impact when you would make calls that are slightly $EV positive. I've agreed in this thread that this is an easy fold *almost* always, however there are bubble situations when close +$EV calls are necessary.

I think this is what was meant by his post, but I take it you disagree given your response....?

raptor517
04-12-2005, 09:20 PM
i dont care if he is pushing 23 there, its still pretty much a 60/40, and im not going to get myself in a situation like that unless i have fold equity and i am the one pushing. im not going to call for a coinflip. period. holla

the alex
04-12-2005, 09:25 PM
I wouldn't call on no read or just a weak read with AJ in this spot. On the bubble here, he'll do it again when you have something better like AK or even AQ where you can have a better chance at dominating him. But if he has KQ, QT, or a low-mid suited connector, you can't feel too good.

There are spots when I'm not calling with AQ as well.

raptor517
04-12-2005, 09:27 PM
im autofolding AQ here too. feel free to sit next to me and steal my blinds. holla

gumpzilla
04-12-2005, 09:29 PM
[ QUOTE ]

He acts before you 3/4 hands, when are you going to be able to get your money into the pot when he's being aggressive raising every hand before you?

[/ QUOTE ]

You'll note that raptor didn't say that he's pushing with any two every hand, but any two every time there. "There" also has to include the relative stack sizes; as soon as this guy starts to get somewhat shorter, the range of hands with which raptor can call will get wider. Also, with more people yet to act, that guy is frequently going to have higher pushing standards because he risks getting called in more spots. So it's very situational.

The key variable here that makes this so iffy even if you know he's pushing with any two is that both blinds have very healthy stacks that are almost the same size. Calling and losing cripples you and drops you to a very low percentage of the prize pool according to ICM, whereas winning is going to boost your equity a fair amount but not as much as you lose by calling and losing. So you need to win VERY often in order for this to work out.

NegativeEV
04-12-2005, 09:30 PM
[ QUOTE ]
i dont care if he is pushing 23 there, its still pretty much a 60/40, and im not going to get myself in a situation like that unless i have fold equity and i am the one pushing. im not going to call for a coinflip. period. holla

[/ QUOTE ]

65/35 is moving away from coin-flip status, but I understand your point. However, as your skill/knowledge advantage decreases, your necessity to accept smaller edges increases. If there are NO situations in which you'd accept a 65/35 advantage in making a call, you have VERY good table selection skills.

raptor517
04-12-2005, 09:36 PM
i never said there are no situations where i will accept a 65/35. i simply said i will never accept it in this situation. this SPECIFIC situation. every situation is different in poker, and the correct play here is to fold. period. holla

NegativeEV
04-12-2005, 09:41 PM
[ QUOTE ]
this SPECIFIC situation. every situation is different in poker, and the correct play here is to fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed.

The once and future king
04-12-2005, 09:48 PM
[ QUOTE ]
i never said there are no situations where i will accept a 65/35.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would happily accept 65/35 as the fixed price on all my allins from here to eternity.

raptor517
04-12-2005, 09:57 PM
well then feel free to sit with me in tournaments, where gosh, believe it or not its not worth taking a 65/35 in some situations!! imagine that.. playing a tournament is different than a cash game.. holla

Voltron87
04-12-2005, 10:04 PM
Your FE with 4 players>>> The edge AJs (unless its clubs) has over any 2.

I will make all in calls with AJ, but not when there are 4 players like this and my chipstack is healthy.

The once and future king
04-12-2005, 10:04 PM
You dont understand my post Hola.

I am often all in as a slight/big dog (I dont choose to be but thats what happens). This happens to you as well.

I was just saying that if a genie said every allin you will ever make you will be a 65/35 fav I would take it in a instance. Unless you are insane so would you Holla.

Also thanks for telling me tournaments arnt cash games. Cleared up a lot of confusion there. Lets hope youre as good as poker as you are at being a patronizing xxxx.

Hola.

raptor517
04-12-2005, 10:15 PM
dont get mad at me because you made a stupid point. everyone would take a 65/35 in a cash game. we all know that. you seem to not know that folding here is the correct play because it is a TOURNAMENT SITUATION. more than likely, you dont beat a level above the 22s. feel free to get mad at me for helping you understand your flaws. holla

HoldingFolding
04-12-2005, 10:18 PM
A couple of quickies:
1. I saw your set up, so I take it it's difficult for you to get reads, but how good an idea can you get that an opponent is, say, TAGgy or LAGgy?
2. Difficult question, but a ballpark figure would be interesting, what sort of drop in ROI do you see as you add tables. In other words if you had an ROI of 30% playing just one table, does it drop to an average of 25% with 4, and 20% with 8?
3. What is the minimum you'd call this with?

john_
04-12-2005, 10:25 PM
I said previously I fold here to almost any opponent. However, is he truly is raising with any 2 then its a slight edge EV wise to call. So that combined with the fact that he's going to be constantly leaning on your left really kills any forseeable advantage while the game is 4 handed(in my opinion).

After weighing out the factors its probably call ASSUMING he raises all in with ANY 2.

The once and future king
04-12-2005, 10:27 PM
Is your comprehension of english [censored] up.

So your saying that if a genie gave you the option of being a 65% fav ON EVERY ALL IN YOU WERE TO EVER MAKE in a SNG you would say NO.

Of course you wouldnt. Unless you are king of the tards.

Also did you see the bit were I said FOLD the AJ.

I made a very flipant throw away post that had nothing at all to do wiht wether you should fold or call here, and in your arogance you saw fit to use it to try to buff your ego by giving me lessons. You went out of your way to misinterpret my post to do this.

Trust me raptor, you cant teach me much, if anything. I play at the same level (on a supposedly tougher site that requires some post flop skilzz) as you and do well.

Who gives a [censored] anyway.

raptor517
04-12-2005, 10:36 PM
lol. i really cant do anything but laugh here. its a shame i try to help others.. and no, its not exactly an ego boost to see someone succeed with your advice. just a good feeling. however, i think i may cut back on that, cuz apparently its not worth much to some people. holla

Scuba Chuck
04-12-2005, 10:37 PM
Pokerstove AJs vs anytwo: 65.4% card equity

raptor517
04-12-2005, 10:39 PM
yea its actually closer to 67.9ish if its AJs vs 23o with none of the AJ suits. and yes, im still folding. holla

NegativeEV
04-12-2005, 10:45 PM
[ QUOTE ]
lol. i really cant do anything but laugh here. its a shame i try to help others.. and no, its not exactly an ego boost to see someone succeed with your advice. just a good feeling. however, i think i may cut back on that, cuz apparently its not worth much to some people. holla

[/ QUOTE ]

It's not the advice that people object to it's the manner in which it's delivered. Yes, it's being provided for free and you can give it however you see fit, but age and life experience will help you understand that you can never go wrong treating EVERYONE with respect.....or maybe it won't.

raptor517
04-12-2005, 10:48 PM
i never disrespect anyone that is showing me respect. and again, stop condescending me because of my age, thanks. holla

adanthar
04-12-2005, 10:51 PM
blah blah fold blah blah bubble dynamics blah why is this thread 40 posts? /images/graemlins/smile.gif

The Yugoslavian
04-12-2005, 10:53 PM
[ QUOTE ]
blah blah fold blah blah bubble dynamics blah why is this thread 40 posts? /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Good point...especially since Raptor didn't need anyone's help or views in the first place (which was painfully obvious to me when I opened up his thread).

Is Raptor becoming the new dali - looking for any fight he can get himself into??

/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Yugoslav

gumpzilla
04-12-2005, 10:56 PM
In sequence:

[ QUOTE ]

I would happily accept 65/35 as the fixed price on all my allins from here to eternity.


[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
well then feel free to sit with me in tournaments, where gosh, believe it or not its not worth taking a 65/35 in some situations!! imagine that.. playing a tournament is different than a cash game.. holla

[/ QUOTE ]

I fail to see the disrespect in post number 1. Is it super relevant? No, but that's a different story.

As far as the age thing goes, I sort of hear you. For a long time I felt the same way when I was young. It was particularly exacerbated in my case because everybody I associated with was a couple of years older, and I think that as a result, I sort of viewed myself as falling in better with that age bracket than my own. Which was true, largely. In retrospect, however, I was still an immature, self-important and clueless punk a lot of the time. When people write you off as being young, they're cutting you some slack, in a sense, because they remember how it was. The other approach is to just tell you that you're being a douche. It's up to you to decide which you prefer, I suppose.

raptor517
04-12-2005, 10:58 PM
i created this thread in an attempt to help. clearly its not worth anyones time to listen, since the methods i use to explain the CORRECT PLAY arent good enough to some people. holla

NegativeEV
04-12-2005, 11:02 PM
[ QUOTE ]
i never disrespect anyone that is showing me respect. and again, stop condescending me because of my age, thanks. holla

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't discredit anyone for this reason. I read your poker advice and value it with no prejudice based on your age. You offer good poker advice, but trust me, this advice is worthwhile as well:

[ QUOTE ]
you can never go wrong treating EVERYONE with respect

[/ QUOTE ]

raptor517
04-12-2005, 11:06 PM
if i was extended that same service i would be happy to comply. but ill keep it in mind for the future /images/graemlins/wink.gif, holla

NegativeEV
04-12-2005, 11:14 PM
[ QUOTE ]
if i was extended that same service i would be happy to comply. but ill keep it in mind for the future holla


[/ QUOTE ]

that's fair

citanul
04-12-2005, 11:52 PM
jeezus this thread is retarded. fold.

for the record, i'll be the guy sitting two to raptor's right for most of tomorrow.

citanul

Newt_Buggs
04-12-2005, 11:59 PM
[ QUOTE ]
A couple of quickies:
1. I saw your set up, so I take it it's difficult for you to get reads, but how good an idea can you get that an opponent is, say, TAGgy or LAGgy?
2. Difficult question, but a ballpark figure would be interesting, what sort of drop in ROI do you see as you add tables. In other words if you had an ROI of 30% playing just one table, does it drop to an average of 25% with 4, and 20% with 8?
3. What is the minimum you'd call this with?

[/ QUOTE ]

Why is it that the only meaningful post got ignored here? I was also curious about these questions, especially the 3rd

raptor517
04-13-2005, 12:03 AM
come get some cit /images/graemlins/wink.gif holla

citanul
04-13-2005, 12:06 AM
i busted the one game that i played with you today in truly meteoric fashion. i was unhappy. at least i think i only played one with you today. i can't remember the 3rd screen name of yours.

so yeah, in summary, i got pwn3d.

citanul

DonButtons
04-13-2005, 12:12 AM
Raptor kind of persuaded me to fold here more often, as Im usually calling /images/graemlins/confused.gif. But still I'd look at my notes, and prob. call/fold depending on previous hh's I have saved on him. Because I see this situation so many times when I call with AK, TT+, Im usually up vs A7, A6, crap....

Now if I have a couple of HHs with him pushing with a7 here, I call for sure. If not, then a fold is fine I guess.

citanul
04-13-2005, 12:31 AM
this is the big point: if the guy is capable of pushing with a huge wide range of hands, it gets to be a more worse call than if you think he mostly pushes with any ace. der

zac777
04-13-2005, 12:42 AM
Not true..

Hand 1: 62.9132 % [ 00.57 00.06 ] { AdJd }
Hand 2: 37.0868 % [ 00.31 00.06 ] { AA, AKs-A2s, AKo-A2o }

Hand 1: 65.3927 % [ 00.64 00.01 ] { AdJd}
Hand 2: 34.6073 % [ 00.34 00.01 ] {random}

And that's assuming he only pushes Ax. Obviously adding a few pairs makes this even worse. You're better off against a random hand, but I agree with the majority that it's usually a fold no matter what range you put him on.

curtains
04-13-2005, 12:44 AM
btw I agree that folding is good, although I'm surprised it's so clear.

If you are playing higher stakes sit and gos you may want to make loose calls in these spots sometimes, as even though it hurts your EV, if you are playing someone that you will play with a good deal, you want them to know you will call sometimes.

Future table image could matter in these situations, and if they are possibly raising with garbage, the EV is close either way.

My default play would be to fold though.

gumpzilla
04-13-2005, 12:45 AM
You've probably seen people throwing around the number that you need to win when you call something like 63% (I'm quoting from memory, ICM analysis can give you the real answer here. If you're unsure what this is, ask.) So it's fairly straightforward once you've decided that. Put him on a range of hands, and then determine which hands win enough of the time against that range, with 63% being your metric. From what raptor has said, I'd imagine that he is going to want to win more than 63% of the time here, as he views his survival and future stealing ability as enough to turn down this edge. Let's say you want to win 70% of the time, and you think he's pushing with any two. The hands that fit the bill here are 99+, and that's it. I'd further guess that raptor wouldn't call this here with 99 or TT, though perhaps I'm wrong, because if there's any chance the read is wrong these are the hands in this calling range that will suffer most. So say JJ+.

raptor517
04-13-2005, 12:49 AM
grumps correct, i call here with JJ+, MAYBE AK, if i feel like being stubborn. holla

DonButtons
04-13-2005, 12:57 AM
folding ak is sick...

I mean, you would get killed in the 200s if regulars picked up on this btw.

I tend to make some VERY loose calls vs some regulars, and that way the mark me in there notes, then I change it up...

raptor517
04-13-2005, 01:04 AM
yes yes, it is sick, but you must remember, this is a 109, and they are all still terrible there. and yea, i still probably call with AK. holla

ilya
04-13-2005, 01:31 AM
OMG EASIEST CALL EVER



/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Fatdogs12
04-13-2005, 01:48 AM
I think a lot of this answer is contextual. In this situation you are in great position to place, in fact a good position to place high. I think it's a mistake to risk that and go all in a situation like that. You have little to lose by folding. Ultimately if you are 65% favorite you will lose 35% of the time. That means if you take this situation 10 times you will bust yourself out of 3 out of every 10 tournaments you play. That is stupid I believe in this position when you have probably a better than 50% chance of placing.

Even winning won't guarentee you will place higher than third so I think your real dollar EV is negative even if your chip EV is good.

My opinion
- Matt

Daliman
04-13-2005, 01:51 AM
Any chance yer the same guy who said calling A9d was instantaneous?

Daliman
04-13-2005, 01:58 AM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
blah blah fold blah blah bubble dynamics blah why is this thread 40 posts? /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Good point...especially since Raptor didn't need anyone's help or views in the first place (which was painfully obvious to me when I opened up his thread).

Is Raptor becoming the new dali - looking for any fight he can get himself into??

/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Yugoslav

[/ QUOTE ]
I AM THE ONE TRUE DALI!

THERE WILL NEVER BE ANOTHER!

raptor517
04-13-2005, 02:00 AM
lol, im raptor, one and only. dali can keep his lil dali-ness. holla

curtains
04-13-2005, 02:37 AM
Cmon man that hand was completely different, for any of those interested here is that hand history... also note that even with much tighter standards than rojo will have here, eastbay's program gives this as a +EV call. (Standards that don't even include the actual hand that he pushed with, including standards as rock tight as 55+ and A5+ and no other hands)


***** Hand History for Game 1562191342 *****
500/1000 TOURNEYTEXASHTGAMETABLE (NL) (TOURNAMENT 9395464) - TUE FEB 08 22:32:17 EST 2005
Table Table 11784 (Real Money) -- Seat 6 is the button
Total number of players : 3
Seat 2: curtainz (5640)
Seat 6: BigPotsOnly (1325)
Seat 7: RoJoSox (3035)
RoJoSox posts small blind (250)
curtainz posts big blind (500)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to curtainz [ 9d, Ad ]
BigPotsOnly folds.
RoJoSox raises (2785) to 3035
RoJoSox is all-In.
curtainz calls (2535)
Creating Main Pot with $6070 with RoJoSox
** Dealing Flop ** : [ 9s, 2h, Qs ]
** Dealing Turn ** : [ Kc ]
** Dealing River ** : [ Qh ]
** Summary **
Main Pot: 6070 |
Board: [ 9s 2h Qs Kc Qh ]
curtainz balance 2605, lost 3035 [ 9d Ad ] [ two pairs, queens and nines -- Ad,Qs,Qh,9d,9s ]
BigPotsOnly balance 1325, didn't bet (folded)
RoJoSox balance 6070, bet 3035, collected 6070, net +3035 [ Js Qc ] [ three of a kind, queens -- Kc,Qc,Qs,Qh,Js ]

citanul
04-13-2005, 02:53 AM
i didn't see that original thread, but i think i call there in the money in a shot.

link?

citanul

curtains
04-13-2005, 02:57 AM
Yeah I think it's an easy call too, but let's let sleeping dogs lie. Just had to respond to him comparing that call to this call!

citanul
04-13-2005, 02:59 AM
no prof, i don't want dali to have beef with us. tofu or not. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

citanul

curtains
04-13-2005, 03:03 AM
Here is the link

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=1697453&page=&view=&s b=5&o=&vc=1

This thread is what got me into posting at 2+2 on this forum. I almost never posted but enjoyed this thread enough and was pissed enough at everyone who disagreed with me that it was a matter of honor to post here all the time.

stupidsucker
04-13-2005, 04:14 AM
wow at the poll results.

I expect almost every player I play at the 20s to make this call. They would be wrong to do so, and sometimes I hate it.

Mr_J
04-13-2005, 04:49 AM
"Any chance yer the same guy who said calling A9d was instantaneous?"

How weird. Today I pushed from SB on the bubble and BB called w/ A9. The table loved his move.

The once and future king
04-13-2005, 07:35 AM
1. What advice do you feel you have given me?

You pointed out a few things that hould be obvious to anyone who posts on this forum (Its a tournament not a cash game LOL). I said fold the AJ in my first post for fecks sake.

2. So you are a winning player at the 100s at Party, big deal get over yourself allready.

3. Id spread 2-1 your a table captain.

4. I wasnt intrested enough in you to know how old you are.
It has become aparent that your are quite young. Theres a surprise.

Phoenix1010
04-13-2005, 08:11 AM
[ QUOTE ]
1. What advice do you feel you have given me?

You pointed out a few things that hould be obvious to anyone who posts on this forum (Its a tournament not a cash game LOL). I said fold the AJ in my first post for fecks sake.

2. So you are a winning player at the 100s at Party, big deal get over yourself allready.

3. Id spread 2-1 your a table captain.

4. I wasnt intrested enough in you to know how old you are.
It has become aparent that your are quite young. Theres a surprise.

[/ QUOTE ]

Somehow I don't believe any of these posts are going to change the way Raptor handles himself on these forums. Although I haven't had any altercations with him, I feel a similar distaste reading some of his responses in this and other threads. Not attacking you Rap, but it's always more useful to have discussions without meaningless shows of arrogance. No one needs you to bring up what level you think they play, or what you estimate their ROI to be. If you have evidence for your opinion on a hand, it can stand on it's own. The level you play does not make you correct. I don't know who you think you're helping by telling someone you think they should keep killing the 10+1's, but aside from your ego and your forum 'friends,' you're probably just pissing everyone off. All the witty retorts in these post wars are a waste of time though. At least he posts some good hands and gives some good insight.

While I'm on the subject, every time I read 'holla,' I die a little inside.

-Phoenix

apd138
04-13-2005, 08:51 AM
[ QUOTE ]
wow at the poll results.

I expect almost every player I play at the 20s to make this call. They would be wrong to do so, and sometimes I hate it.

[/ QUOTE ] I believe it may be correct to make this call if you are a losing player. A better play would be to log on to the forums here instead of partypoker but thats a different story.

Bataglin
04-13-2005, 08:52 AM
The correct answer to this question is player dependant. This is an easy fold for the superior player, and an easy call for the inferior player.

sofere
04-13-2005, 09:09 AM
If I was at the table and not involved in the hand, I would love the move too, do you see why?

BradleyT
04-13-2005, 12:21 PM
[ QUOTE ]
This is an easy fold for the superior player, and an easy call for the inferior player.

[/ QUOTE ]

Correct.

If a player sucks, they should be taking small edges like 55/45. If a player doesn't suck, they should not be taking those small edges.

raptor517
04-13-2005, 01:26 PM
[ QUOTE ]
The level you play does not make you correct

[/ QUOTE ]

yes but the level with which i DO play DOES make me correct. and i am correct. die inside again. holla

Daliman
04-13-2005, 02:51 PM
[ QUOTE ]
no prof, i don't want dali to have beef with us. tofu or not. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

citanul

[/ QUOTE ]

I was jes' busting his balls. The A9s call, while not great, was fine IMHO.

Funny he found it so quickly...

Paul2432
04-13-2005, 03:38 PM
Great thread (snippiness aside). In the past I would normally call in this situation, but this thread has certainly given me something to think about.

I think there is an interesting parallel situation in PL Omaha Hi/Lo. In a three way hand when two players have the nut low and a third player has a high, the first low player to get his money in has a large advantage (assuming competent players). The second low player cannot call or he will lose money. If he does call both players lose money.

Similarly, when the SB moves in here the BB cannot call without losing money. If he does call both players lose. As DonButtons alluded to, against regular opposition, one has to occassionally "fall on one's sword" to prevent the SB from stealing with any two cards.

Paul

SonicReducer
04-13-2005, 04:01 PM
[ QUOTE ]

While I'm on the subject, every time I read 'holla,' I die a little inside.

-Phoenix

[/ QUOTE ]

Glad I'm not the only one who feels this way. LOL!

What's a Table Captain??? /images/graemlins/confused.gif

EdgePort
04-13-2005, 04:22 PM
Thanks Raptor.. I had to think long and hard about what to do here, and I think reading this thread helped me a lot.

Keep posting these, and if you feel like some whole touraments.

raptor517
04-13-2005, 04:23 PM
well it looks like yall will be dead very soon. holla