Play this flop for me

[networkman]

MP2 is a chronic limper and calling station, SB is a good player

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t100 (7 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

MP1 (t800)
MP2 (t1075)
CO (t740)
Button (t580)
SB (t1555)
Hero (t1915)
UTG (t1335)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, MP2 calls t100, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, SB completes, Hero checks.

Flop: (t300) Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets t150</font>

[Token]

It's between a call and a raise, but I think I would call. I wouldn't like to face a big re-raise.

[hummusx]

I'm gonna raise this on a semi-bluff. The bet is probably a semi-bluff. I think there's a pretty reasonable chance that SB is betting because that's a not-too scary board. He might be betting on a draw, with 4 to a straight or even the K-high flush. If you put in a decent raise, you still have plenty of chips left if he pushes and you fold. It might also throw him off of your hand if he calls with the better hand and then you improve.

[Phil Van Sexton]

[ QUOTE ]
It's between a call and a raise, but I think I would call. I wouldn't like to face a big re-raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

You wouldn't be facing a re-raise if you pushed.

I wouldn't raise less than allin and then fold to an allin. That seems very expensive, and you might have the pot odds to call the allin anyway.

The SB is a good player, so he's unlikely to pay you off if a 3rd flush card hits the board. Therefore, calling doesn't have the implied odds that I need.

Push.

[Unarmed]

[ QUOTE ]

Push.

[/ QUOTE ]

1) Any comments on the other player in the hand?
2) I was thinking stacks are a bit too deep to push here, how deep do you have to be to make pushing a bad move?
3) Why do you need implied odds with 14 outs?

Given 3) and 2) I call and hope the other player takes his lovely pot odds and comes along for the ride either drawing dead or with a crappy made hand.

[etgryphon]

I think this is a clear push and hopefully you have 14 clean outs if you get called. Since you have the SB covered and he lead out for 1/2 pot bet, I think you can get him to fold TPBK which would be great. In addition, you have a player behind you so I don't think you have to play it fast.

-Gryph

[gumpzilla]

[ QUOTE ]

The SB is a good player, so he's unlikely to pay you off if a 3rd flush card hits the board. Therefore, calling doesn't have the implied odds that I need.


[/ QUOTE ]

This is something I was thinking too, but the other player might pay off. I think a lot hinges on whether you think that the calling station will call you if you push now, or whether you should just call thinking that if the station comes along HE will pay off your flush. His stack isn't very deep, so that's not so enticing, but I think it's probably deep enough to make this okay given that you've already got 2:1 to call at this point (and 3:1 if you assume he's coming.)

Given the presence of the station, I'd lean towards calling and hoping he came along. Two callers seems like it would have a good chance of slowing the SB down, and then if checked to I could probably push almost any turn - a Q would probably be what I would be afraid of.

Pushing seems fine to me too. I agree with Phil's sentiment that if you make a raise smaller than a push for some reason you can't fold to a push over the top.

[adanthar]

The question is whether pushing will make SB fold a Q or whether he'll see it for the flush draw that it is and call.

I don't push here. I think the choice is either to call or to raise to 450 and check behind on the turn. Either of them can feel free to call with a Q if they want, but most of the time that will take it down right there.

I think there was one time the SB called my raise and then pushed on a blank turn in a hundred thousand hands, but if that happens, eh, I'll live with it. I also do this with 88-77, any 2 pair and any big draw/good Q here so he can go ahead and guess what I have.

[pokerlaw]

[ QUOTE ]

The SB is a good player, so he's unlikely to pay you off if a 3rd flush card hits the board. Therefore, calling doesn't have the implied odds that I need.

[/ QUOTE ]

A call in this situation followed by MP calling - as he is a station - gives you almost 5:1 pot odds. Definetly worth seeing a turn card for a flush or a 7.

I don't hate a push/raise here; but i would want to see the turn card cheaply first if possible. Further, MP might pay you off on a flush.

[Phil Van Sexton]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Push.

[/ QUOTE ]

1) Any comments on the other player in the hand?
2) I was thinking stacks are a bit too deep to push here, how deep do you have to be to make pushing a bad move?
3) Why do you need implied odds with 14 outs?

Given 3) and 2) I call and hope the other player takes his lovely pot odds and comes along for the ride either drawing dead or with a crappy made hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

15 outs are nice, if you get to see the turn AND river. Calling the flop only buys the turn. You are 15/47 to hit an out on the turn. Not good.

If the 3rd player calls, the pot will be 650 on the turn. If you miss and SB bets 300 on the turn, you probably call again. You are calling off a ton of money to chase this flush.

In addition, the 3rd player could raise behind you on either the flop or the turn. Now you are caught in a sandwich and may have to call off more money, or fold without seeing the turn/river.

You have to think ahead when your stack isn't deep compared to the pot size. With 3 people in the pot, this pot is going to get huge fast. It's better to cut to the chase and just push now when you have the maximum fold equity.

[johnnybeef]

im curious if anyone smooth calls this one in hopes that the limper will sweeten the pot. this way when you do hit on the turn you can take down a huge pot.

[Unarmed]

Me.

[TheCat]

You have 14 outs which makes you just a nats over 50% to fill buy the river. In a cash game you would always be correct to push. In a SnG I'm not so sure, you have lots of folding equity but why put your self on a coin flip if you don't have to? Also you may well not have 14 outs if someone has a trips or a two pair.
However you have too much of a hand to flat call. If you miss on the turn you could be in trouble against a raise.
A pot sized raise has some folding equity, you only commit 450 of your chips and may get a free card on the river.

[Phil Van Sexton]

[ QUOTE ]
The question is whether pushing will make SB fold a Q or whether he'll see it for the flush draw that it is and call.

I don't push here. I think the choice is either to call or to raise to 450 and check behind on the turn. Either of them can feel free to call with a Q if they want, but most of the time that will take it down right there.

I think there was one time the SB called my raise and then pushed on a blank turn in a hundred thousand hands, but if that happens, eh, I'll live with it. I also do this with 88-77, any 2 pair and any big draw/good Q here so he can go ahead and guess what I have.

[/ QUOTE ]

I must say, this sounds like a good plan.

[prepotency]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

The SB is a good player, so he's unlikely to pay you off if a 3rd flush card hits the board. Therefore, calling doesn't have the implied odds that I need.

[/ QUOTE ]

A call in this situation followed by MP calling - as he is a station - gives you almost 5:1 pot odds. Definetly worth seeing a turn card for a flush or a 7.

I don't hate a push/raise here; but i would want to see the turn card cheaply first if possible. Further, MP might pay you off on a flush.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree, my play here is call the flop bet and try to see the turn card cheaply. If there is a raise behind me, then I probably push over it (depending on how strong the player/raise is)

[prepotency]

[ QUOTE ]
You have 14 outs which makes you just a nats over 50% to fill buy the river. In a cash game you would always be correct to push. In a SnG I'm not so sure, you have lots of folding equity but why put your self on a coin flip if you don't have to? Also you may well not have 14 outs if someone has a trips or a two pair.
However you have too much of a hand to flat call. If you miss on the turn you could be in trouble against a raise.
A pot sized raise has some folding equity, you only commit 450 of your chips and may get a free card on the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with your assessment, the only thing that I'm concerned about is semi-bluffing into a multi-way pot when your stacks are fragile and a two pair hand isn't unconsiderable here. This is the kind of hand, IMHO, that you should tiptoe around because it will likely turn the tide of your sng one way or the other.

[hyde]

Quote.
"I don't push here. I think the choice is either to call or to raise to 450 and check behind on the turn. Either of them can feel free to call with a Q if they want, but most of the time that will take it down right there. "

this is where i would have gone with it before reading options. though I was tempted to call and hope for a heart to get a bigger pot.
BUT.... I love to slow play, I just hate the results....

[Nottom]

[ QUOTE ]

I wouldn't raise less than allin and then fold to an allin. That seems very expensive, and you might have the pot odds to call the allin anyway.

[/ QUOTE ]

might?

[networkman]

Thanks for the input.

I forgot to say this was a party 30+3.

I ended up raising 450, they both folded. The main thing with this hand was MP2, He'd been up over t2000 and under t300 (all the way up and down) 3 times! I was totally bewildered by his play and didn't really know what I wanted him to do. /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[nokona13]

I'm going to pat myself on the back for having started writing this, then feeling like I should read all the replies first, and having adanthar advocate my position.

I really like the raise to 450 here. With bet/raise, even a calling station gets wary and probably folds anything but a good queen or a king-flush. My thinking here is basically I don't want to tangle with the 2nd stack on a coin flip push, but I'd like to see two cards... So I raise and try to buy myself a check-behind on the turn. My only question is, say you hit the flush and he won't pay up. Then you're basically getting 1.66:1 on your 450 bet on the flop, but are a bit less than 2:1 to get there by the river. I'm thinking the times he folds plus the times he gets to a king flush or trips or something by the river and decides to pay add up to make this overall a decidedly +CEV play?