Down to three, put the shortstack all in?

[Morbo]

3 left in a live tourney. I have ~150k, the smallstack has 10.5k, other guy has about 150k too. Blinds at 4k/8k, with a 1k ante.

Payout structure:
1st 27k
2nd 14k
3rd 10k

So I'm the small blind, and the smallstack is big blind, and has just 1.5k left after posting. Button folds, and it's up to me. I have T3. Put him all in?

[schwza]

you have to put in 5.5k to win a total of 35k. how could you not put him in?

[gumpzilla]

Not sure where 35k is coming from. Putting the shortstack all-in results in a total pot of 22k, as far as I can see. Taking the 5.5k you're putting in back out, it looks like you're getting laid a little more than 3:1, which still suggests that you should do it, since T3 is not going to be that big of a dog to a random hand.

[schwza]

um, wow, i'm glad i'm nowhere near a game right now.

i did: SB (4k) x BB (8k) = 32k + 3k antes. i thought that number seemed really weird.

that said, it's still a push. i guess the best play is actually to just complete and then push the flop to give him a chance to make a horrible mistake.

[Loci]

yeah, you have to call here. you're probably a 60/40 underdog, but pot odds certainly are in your favor. Besides, you might even be ahead of the random hand. If he wins it doesn't affect you really, because he's still in a desperate spot, and you're still in a dead heat for first.

[LethalRose]

Depending how they are responding to your steals and what kind of feel im getting from the table, I probably fold and try to get heads up vs the small stack. In specific situations though i would try to knock the shortstack out.

[DireWolf]

You are heads up against the small stack.

[LethalRose]

[ QUOTE ]
You are heads up against the small stack.

[/ QUOTE ]

I mean fold, leaving the small stack in. and try to take out the big stack. making me headsup vs the smallstack for 1st place, a very good situation to be in.

There was a thread a while ago with discussed the dynamics and advantages of not busting out the shortstack, if you can continue to slowly build up your stack while leaving the shortstack in its better to do so. This all depends how the other big stack is playing.

Seems like everyone here goes for the push as pot odds say to. The smallstack must call this push, i dont make this move unless I want the shortstack to fold.

[fnord_too]

Yes.

[DireWolf]

ok, that makes more sense. But i think that will be a lot harder to do, plus you might get busted. The shortstack is so short, that he will probably bust, or keep doubling up, before you pick up a hand where you can bust the other large stack.

[schwza]

you're costing yourself a lot of chips (in EV) if you fold. you'd have to have a very compelling reason, such as the 2nd stack announcing "i won't play a hand till he's out."

[LethalRose]

[ QUOTE ]
you're costing yourself a lot of chips (in EV) if you fold. you'd have to have a very compelling reason, such as the 2nd stack announcing "i won't play a hand till he's out."

[/ QUOTE ]

If he folds, he only loses 5K and is left with 145k, the shortstack will be left with 2.5BB. If he pushes and wins he wont gain a significant advantage heads up versus the other player, they will be even. with a hand like 103o its a coinflip vs whatever the small blind has. and I dont want to double up the smallstack here.

The other big stack may just be playing to get at least 2nd, folding his blinds easily trying to get that extra 4k. Im hoping to take advantage of this style of playing. I could easily steal both the blinds next hands. I dont necessarily bust the big stack, I just want to establish a 2 to 1 chiplead vs him.

I would also consider when and what the blinds are going to go up to. a 10kBB with 150k isnt too comfortable for me.



Im not trying to disagree with or argue with anyone, simply showing a different strategy to this situation which may or not be correct.

[adanthar]

That strat would be a lot better if the other two stacks weren't even.

As it stands, the first person to go all in between the other two wins any blind confrontation unless the other guy has kings or better, which means that unless you want to push every hand to win the blinds (and hope the SS doesn't call) you should try to bust him now.

[gumpzilla]

[ QUOTE ]

If he folds, he only loses 5K and is left with 145k, the shortstack will be left with 2.5BB.

[/ QUOTE ]

And if he calls and loses, that gives him just over 3 BB. Not a huge difference.

[ QUOTE ]
If he pushes and wins he wont gain a significant advantage heads up versus the other player, they will be even.

[/ QUOTE ]

If he calls and loses, they will be "even" too, so what's to lose, following this reasoning?

[ QUOTE ]
with a hand like 103o its a coinflip vs whatever the small blind has. and I dont want to double up the smallstack here.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're giving the smallstack more equity by folding, I'm pretty sure.

My other problem with your reasoning: the other stack has now just watched you fold getting great odds to the shortstack. He's now going to think, "Wow! This other guy is a pansy. He's going to fold until the short guy busts out!" if he's any good, and then the situation that you thought you'd just set up for yourself is suddenly reversed. I think it's a much different beast if you have, say, 2x the other guy's stack and he is in any danger of busting. But, as is, I don't think your plan is going to work at all and is likely to end up getting you run over more often than not.