Race and the NBA age limit.

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Jermaine O'Neal speaks (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2005/basketball/nba/04/12/bc.bkn.pacers.o.neal.racism.ap/index.html) about the proposed age limit of 20 in the collective bargaining agreement here.

I think this is very interesting:
"As a black guy, you kind of think that's the reason why it's coming up. You don't hear about it in baseball or hockey. To say you have to be 20, 21 to get in the league, it's unconstitutional. If I can go to the U.S. army and fight the war at 18, why can't you play basketball for 48 minutes?"

I expect a number of people to jump all over him and call him a whiner. My take on this is that the influx of high-paid players, the deterioration of the professional game and the changing image of the league as black players become even more dominant is basically capitalism in a nutshell. Supply and demand: there is a demand for great players and prospects which is filled by the best available, many of whom are low-income blacks. As the market often does, this change in the commodity also promotes a change in the surrounding institutions (i.e. college ball), society and the game itself.

The NBA is hoping to fix its image problem with a band-aid here. They aren't saying they want to stop low-income blacks from playing the game, because nothing is going to stop a top prospect from getting into college and playing until he's 20. But they recognize that the high salaries, uncontrolled players and deteriorating image/game are hurting them, and they realize that this is exacerbated by the fact that the NBA is an organization whose public faces are young black males. So there is a connection between this potential move (which I doubt will work out) and race, but not a direct or literal one.

So ignoring the role of race here is silly. The NBA is hoping that by trying to preserve the traditionalist elements of the game (the old 'scholar-athlete,' etc) and force its young talent to go through a sort of disciplinary / training regimen, it can repair its image and promote discipline. But let's be frank: it ain't gonna work.

This basically boils down to a problem of management in the free market. Strange as it sounds, this is a legitimate labor issue, albeit one where it's harder to sympathize with a guy making millions and complaining about feeding his kids. (Mainstream media, BTW, does a great job of marginalizing labor struggles through the coverage of sports negotiations, but that's another issue.) Management in this case is at a point where the inmates (no pun intended) are running the asylum; the league's marketing and popularity are so driven by individual personalities and mythical figures like 'King James' that the best players have become far too powerful to be controlled. This won't change until people stop wanting to buy the product, and contrary to all the complaints you hear from the 'blogosphere,' that's not happening right now.

So, to those who hate the 'overpaid brats' of the NBA, you reap what you sow, and you get what you pay for.

NT

[Dead]

I don't support instituting an age requirement. There are a lot of decent 16 year olds and 17 year olds out there too. 16 and 17 year olds are currently allowed to play in the NBA, right?

It IS stupid to tell someone like Lebron to go to college. Say he goes to Duke. Duke makes tons of cash off him. I'd rather see LeBron make that money then Duke, or any other university for that matter.

Some players are just ready. T-Mac was ready. KG was ready. Lebron was ready. Carmelo could have been.

I like watching the younger players better than some of the schmuck gangsters who went through 4 years of college.

I don't know if an age limit would be racist or not(it very well could be), but it certainly would be a bad idea, imo.

I think that lots of people who want an age limit just hate the idea of seeing black men achieve success. That pisses some insecure white men off. We will see after a few responses to this thread if we happen to have some insecure white men on this site.

And Melo RULEEEEEEEZZZZZZ! Cuse represent.

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I think that lots of people who want an age limit just hate the idea of seeing black men achieve success. That pisses some insecure white men off. We will see after a few responses to this thread if we happen to have some insecure white men on this site.


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You're grossly oversimplifying the situation. As usual.

The NBA's image problem stems from a number of issues, many of which I described in my first post. They will not be solved by an age limit. So the people who support an age limit MAY have some racial subtext going on but the problem is more complex than that.

However, I agree with O'Neal that race is a huge factor in this whole situation. But cultural values (which are connected to race, certainly) are a more accurate way of describing the crux of the issue. The NBA had a great era with it's most influential player ever being black - because that player was accessible to mainstream audiences and conformed to American cultural norms (which are shaped by 'whiteness,' but, again, to describe it simply as racial is too easy). These players do not conform to those standards.

NT

[Dead]

Do you deny that a chunk of white men are racist in this respect, and don't want black men to achieve success, and certainly not on this scale?

[Voltron87]

You think the NBA creating an age limit because of white men who don't want to see young black men succeed? Are you serious?

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[ QUOTE ]
Do you deny that a chunk of white men are racist in this respect, and don't want black men to achieve success, and certainly not on this scale?

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No, but a very small minority of people will actually tell you outright that they don't like all those niggers jumping around making millions of dollars. Most will cite cultural and moral differences, and many will honestly believe that race does not play a factor in the decision (though it does).

So by simply sticking to your liberal kool-aid guns and calling them racist you make it easier for them to deny the validity of your argument and ignore you. It's important to understand what people actually think and why, not just come up with broad platitudes and observations to satisfy your smug political 'philosophy.'

NT

[nothumb]

I think the free market and labor aspects of this whole debacle are more interesting, which is why I spent so much time discussing them, but you can never get away from race in this situation.


NT

[KJS]

The NBA has lived off of their free farm system (NCAA Div. 1) for too long without much added benefit to the players. The league gets colleges to develop their players at no cost, but now the players are exhibiting there is a cost to them (going to school, risking injury to play for free) and want to circumvent the free farm system. For the league to try to force them into that system via an age limit is a self-serving and wrong, IMO. When you consider that there are people who want to use sports as a means to an education they truly desire, the impact is magnified.

For me, the only fair choices are for the NBA to establish a true farm system that compensates the players or give up on the age limit. And if I were involved in intercollegiate athletics I would push for a system where a kid decides between 4 years of school or minor league B-ball. I know there is big money in NCAA hoops, but do schools really gain when a ton of their scholarships go to athletes who never graduate? Furthermore, for the NBA to pretend they care about their future stars getting a college education is very disingenuous. At least baseball doesn't operate under this pretense. They know their kids want to play ball so they pay them to do just that.

KJS

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But cultural values (which are connected to race, certainly) are a more accurate way of describing the crux of the issue.

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In my opinion, this is exactly right and why Jermaine O'Neal is wrong. I am a big NBA fan. I don't follow a team as much as I watch the sport. But my interest in the sport has waned significantly in the past 5 years. I'm pretty sure that's because I don't like the image of many of the players. All of the "gangsta" nonsense, the disrespect to coaches, the lack of sportsmanship, the trash talk, the tattoos. But this is not a black-white thing. I dislike Jason Williams ("white chocolate") as much as any of these other inked-up nut jobs. Not only is there a marked cultural difference, but the differences are things that I find distasteful, again for example the lack of sportsmanship.

Wlll raising the minimum age from 18 help? It might not. Iverson conveys the same image at 30 (or whatever age he is) that he did when he was in college. But it won't hurt, so I don't object to it from a pure "sports" standpoint.

But to say it's "racist" is wrong. "Racist" means the NBA is trying to keep out black males under 20. That's not what it's trying to do. It's trying to keep out young males under 20, most of whom happen to be black. Big difference.

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No, but a very small minority of people will actually tell you outright that they don't like all those niggers jumping around making millions of dollars. Most will cite cultural and moral differences, and many will honestly believe that race does not play a factor in the decision (though it does).

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Are you saying that people who cite "cultural and moral differences" are closet racists? I would beg to differ with that one, if that's what you're saying. One does not need to be a racist to dislike a lot of what the current NBA has to offer.

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The NBA has lived off of their free farm system (NCAA Div. 1) for too long without much added benefit to the players. The league gets colleges to develop their players at no cost, but now the players are exhibiting there is a cost to them (going to school, risking injury to play for free) and want to circumvent the free farm system. For the league to try to force them into that system via an age limit is a self-serving and wrong, IMO. When you consider that there are people who want to use sports as a means to an education they truly desire, the impact is magnified.

For me, the only fair choices are for the NBA to establish a true farm system that compensates the players or give up on the age limit. And if I were involved in intercollegiate athletics I would push for a system where a kid decides between 4 years of school or minor league B-ball. I know there is big money in NCAA hoops, but do schools really gain when a ton of their scholarships go to athletes who never graduate? Furthermore, for the NBA to pretend they care about their future stars getting a college education is very disingenuous. At least baseball doesn't operate under this pretense. They know their kids want to play ball so they pay them to do just that.

KJS

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I heard somewhere recently that this is precisely the NBA's intention, in conjunction with the age limit.

[DVaut1]

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The NBA has lived off of their free farm system (NCAA Div. 1) for too long without much added benefit to the players. The league gets colleges to develop their players at no cost, but now the players are exhibiting there is a cost to them (going to school, risking injury to play for free) and want to circumvent the free farm system .

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I agree with what's at the heart of your post, mainly that the NBA has been freeloading off of the NCAA, and that this is their motivation behind attempting to institute an age limit. If I understand you correctly though, I disagree with the part in bold. The NBA doesn't 'get' the NCAA to develop its talent for it (if by 'get', you mean compel against the NCAA's will). The NCAA is a more than willing quid pro quo partner, as the NBA gets a free development league and the NCAA gets profit from a popular product (NCAA basketball).

There's also a claim about marketing to be made here. Due to the popularity of NCAA basketball/football, the NBA and the NFL get their young talent as already known commodities to much of their audience. In other words, no one needs to tell Cleveland Browns fans to get excited about Braylon Edwards/Mike Williams or whomever they end up drafting. They will, for the most part, already be very familiar with the commodity that they’re receiving. The same thing is not true in MLB or the NHL, where almost all of their amateurs are largely unknown (even to the core of their audience). The San Diego Padres have to spend a time/energy/resources developing Matt Bush (last year's #1 pick), as well as getting their audience excited about paying to see (or buy a jersey of, etc.) such a player. The same won't be said of the Cleveland Browns after draft day.

The problem is that NBA teams/owners/management are now unable to demonstrate prudence in drafting high schoolers, and are more frequently willing to gamble on a high school players because they payoff is enormous (see KG, Kobe, tmac etc.; also refer to the NHL lockout for an example of how owner's/management's lack of discipline can have a pernicious effect on the health of a sport, to the extent that league leadership must attempt create new standards [age limit in the NBA, salary cap in the NHL] to reign owners in).

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I know there is big money in NCAA hoops, but do schools really gain when a ton of their scholarships go to athletes who never graduate?

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Yes, their gain is substantial.

In regards to the OP, I must disagree that 'league image' is playing a role in the motivation behind an age limit. The prohibitive cost of having to develop talent far outweighs any calculation of the damage that 18 years are doing to the league's image, IMO.

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Are you saying that people who cite "cultural and moral differences" are closet racists?

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No. Note that I am loath to even use a loaded term like 'racist,' but I do think that race plays a role in the level of interest and identification people have with the NBA. I do think that 'race' is a factor (to varying degrees) for EVERYONE in their 'cultural and moral' values, however, it is far too complex an issue to break down into such simplistic terms. Besides, the choices we make in our entertainment and the way we treat individuals are different things, although each influences the other.

So short answer, no. Long answer, sort of, but it's not a bad thing. Applying the term 'racist' in that regard renders the term so general as to be virtually meaningless.

BTW, note that Jermaine O'Neal is not calling anyone racist, or even saying it's a racist 'decision.' He just said that, to a black man, looking at the situation from the inside out, it FEELS like race is playing a big role in the controversy. And I don't think he's wrong on this one.

NT

[jaxmike]

Let's look at the real culprit behind this issue. The NCAA... Think about it. Seriously, its not racism, only an idiot could seriously conclude that, its freaking money baby, thats all just about everythings about.

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In regards to the OP, I must disagree that 'league image' is playing a role in the motivation behind an age limit. The prohibitive cost of having to develop talent far outweighs any calculation of the damage that 18 years are doing to the league's image, IMO.

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I don't think that they are doing this because high school players hurt the league; on the contrary, some of the most popular and reliable stars are high school players. Which is why the NBA's logic makes even less sense to me.

What the NBA hopes to do is force players to go through the old 'farm system' (NCAA ball), which operates at no cost to them, with a simple age rule. I didn't mean to state that simply raising the age limit will fix their image. Rather, the labor issues, discipline problems, 'image' issues, and overall low quality of play are all part of a larger issue of management which the NBA hopes to resolve by sending the stars back to college (among other things). Which, in short, ain't gonna work. The cat's out of the proverbial bag on this one.

I agree with the other poster who said that quality of games is also down, and that contributes to people taking issue with the league. Lack of discipline and a big money, star-studded approach are reflected in the current 'strategy' as well - more isolation and two-man games, less teamwork and poor defense and effort overall. So, the low quality of product is another part of the discipline/management issues the NBA has. And when you hear the average fan complain, they touch on most or all of these issues, not just the games.

I have basically chosen to approach this whole issue from a management perspective, since there is such a culture of management in our society and this is one area where it's fallen significantly short.

NT

[stealyourface]

The NBA proposed age-limit has nothing to do with College Basketball. They are doing it to improve the NBA game period.

They would much rather have highschoolers get drafted and play in the NBDL then go to college.

there is a really good article about the topic here...

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news?slug=ageminimumwillhavemaximu&prov=tsn&type=l gns

[jaxmike]

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The NBA proposed age-limit has nothing to do with College Basketball. They are doing it to improve the NBA game period.

They would much rather have highschoolers get drafted and play in the NBDL then go to college.

there is a really good article about the topic here...

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news?slug=ageminimumwillhavemaximu&prov=tsn&type=l gns

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Do you HONESTLY believe that the NCAA is playing no part in this??

[KJS]

I didn't mean to overstate the degree to which colleges are coerced to develop players by the NBA. Certainly schools get a lot out of the current arrangement. I didn't mean to imply the NBA was forcing them into being a de facto farm system.

Excellent point about how the star power of college players helps the NBA and NFL.

KJS

[[censored]]

I support the age requirement, or the rather the NBA'a right to have one if they choose, but your opinion about race being as issue is spot one.

Still I see nothing wrong with the NBA increasing the professional requirements (2 years beyond highschool) for its employees.

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Still I see nothing wrong with the NBA increasing the professional requirements (2 years beyond highschool) for its employees.

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Care to elaborate here? I hadn't even thought much about whether they have a right to do it, more so I was just thinking how useless it would be.

NT

[Dead]

So, nothumb, are you advocating more attempts to try and solve the problems in the African-American community? In other words, are you trying to stop the "problem" at its source, instead of trying to apply a band-aid like you think the NBA is doing with this proposed policy?

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Still I see nothing wrong with the NBA increasing the professional requirements (2 years beyond highschool) for its employees.

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Care to elaborate here? I hadn't even thought much about whether they have a right to do it, more so I was just thinking how useless it would be.

NT

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Basically, the NBA has determined for various reasons that their business would be better if its players had a required 2 years experience beyond the age 18 (high school). Now I have no idea what so ever if they are correct or not but because they are in the business of selling a product I think they should be given the right to determine what requirements are necessary as long as they are not unfairly discriminatory. Many businesses require some type of experience beyond highschool even from those individuals whose talent or intelligence would otherwise allow them to perform the required tasks.

As for its usefullness. I can see both sides. Certainly in my life time the quality of play in the NBA has deteriotated if judged from a traditional basketball standpoint. Younger less polished players are the main reason for this. An age requirement would help.

However I think the main problem with the NBA is that a large number of fans do not identify with and do not want to identify with the "hip hop" culture which the league courted and marketed in the late and post Jordan era. Basically there is, a before non-existant, gap between the more "high end" (season ticket, expensive seat) fans and its core players. This was not a problem when the leagues biggest starts were Magic, Bird and Jordan. Much of this, as you stated comes down to race, or the perception by professional white men (largest fan base) of young black men (largest employee base). I don't think an age requirement would do much here.

[DVaut1]

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Basically, the NBA has determined for various reasons that their business would be better if its players had a required 2 years experience beyond the age 18 (high school). Now I have no idea what so ever if they are correct or not but because they are in the business of selling a product I think they should be given the right to determine what requirements are necessary as long as they are not unfairly discriminatory. Many businesses require some type of experience beyond highschool even from those individuals whose talent or intelligence would otherwise allow them to perform the required tasks.


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'Age limit' rules aren't discriminatory as much as they violate anti-trust laws. The NBA can 'determine' whatever it would like about what benefits banning under 20s from the league would produce; the way the NBA (and all other professional sports leagues, for that matter) have been circumventing these anti-competition laws is through collective bargaining (in other words, by gaining the consent of the players' unions). Why does prohibiting 18/19 year olds from the NBA violate antitrust laws? Because such a rules prohibits competitors from entering the marketplace. Collective bargaining agreements, however, allow for the NBA’s rules to avoid entirely the scrutiny of antitrust laws; however, as federal court cases like Clarett v. National Football League have demonstrated, it is still unclear as to whether or not league rules which exclude players altogether are immune from antitrust laws, even if they are collectively bargained. The point of this post is clear up a few things which seem to have been misunderstood:

1) The NBA can't unilaterally create an age limit rule, regardless of their interests/burdens; it must be collectively bargained and consented to by the players' union.
2) [ QUOTE ]
but because they are in the business of selling a product I think they should be given the right to determine what requirements are necessary

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This is a right the NBA does not (and cannot) legally posses. If you merely mean that the NBA ought to have such a right under some vastly different standard of labor law, then fair enough; but the NBA clearly does not posses this right now.

3) EVEN if the NBA does reach an agreement with the players union during the next collective bargaining agreement (and this seems probable, as I don't know many NBA players who plan on being teenagers again), it's unclear as to whether or not this rule would withstand a legal challenge.

Either way, wouldn't it be nice if some scholarly research was done on this subject? (http://www.nbadraft.net/illegaldefense/index.html)

[bholdr]

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Let's look at the real culprit behind this issue. The NCAA... Think about it. Seriously, its not racism, only an idiot could seriously conclude that, its freaking money baby, thats all just about everythings about.

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this is one of the few times i totally aggree.

however, there is a component of NBA fans that are unhappy with young black men making all that money, and that shouldn't be ignored.

but it's their money that the NBA and NCAA are after...

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So, nothumb, are you advocating more attempts to try and solve the problems in the African-American community? In other words, are you trying to stop the "problem" at its source, instead of trying to apply a band-aid like you think the NBA is doing with this proposed policy?

[/ QUOTE ]

The problem here isn't that black people are poor. In fact, I don't have any problem at all. The NBA does. While they haven't taken a serious hit yet, the long-term viability of the league depends on them finding ways to keep the high-end ticket customers interested while still capitalizing on the outside marketing that has exploded along with the 'hip hop generation.'

The problem of NBA management not being able to dictate cultural and behavioral norms to its labor is not a problem at all to me. If people don't want to watch the game and the players, they won't. There is an urban fan base to the NBA that is growing by the minute. Alleviating poverty in the black community is not going to change the fact that players want to make a lot of money, and get in the league as fast as possible. Are you saying that, if we eliminate poverty, we can eliminate this problematic 'hip hop' thing and the NBA will be good again? No. Poverty is not the issue here.

Now, that said, I think that the situation of America's working poor and urban ghettos is simply unforgivable, but I think it's only of tangential importance to this discussion. Many basketball players now are not from urban environments anyway, including blacks - they are often middle or working class and come from a variety of places.

So, you can't just apply a cookie-cutter proclamation, such as, "You're racist if you think this," or, "We need to solve the problems of the black community." Unfortunately real problems require some analytical thinking and subtlety.

NT

[wayabvpar]

We were discussing this at another board a couple of days ago; I have cut and pasted and my post from there...

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Part of the problem is the young kids coming straight out of high school with a $10 miillion contract. Most people just aren't mature enough to handle that kind of money and the possible problems it brings. I would have been a ginormous fucktard if someone handed me $10 million at that age, and I was probably in the 90th percentile for maturity/intelligence then.


O'Neal is a bit misguided. Maybe the age limit will encourage kids (black and white alike) to keep their grades up in high school and get into a college program instead of just banking on the fact that they will hit the NBA at 18. There are thousands of colleges, and only, what, just over 300 NBA jobs? If the reality was that they had NO CHOICE but to try to get into college, they would be better off for it.


Also- as a fan, I get sick and tired of seeing the quality of play deteriorate. For every LeBron James, there is a Darko, or a Kwame, or any number of other young guys who just weren't ready. Some of them develop into decent/good players (Rashard Lewis, for example...took him several years, though), while others never reach their potential. I firmly believe that even a couple of years of college ball to help cement some fundamentals would do wonders for the quality of play in the NBA.

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[Al Schoonmaker]

The significant issue is not the age at which players may enter the NBA. It is that colleges and universities pretend to be educational institutions despite recruiting illiterates, and pressuring the faculty to give them grades they don't deserve.

The University of Georgia lost a lawsuit by a professor who was fired for flunking an athlete. She won, and the attorney for the university even admitted in court that it was not educating some of its athletes. Many other universities and colleges -- including prestigious ones -- are guilty of the same offenses.

The mere fact that so many athletes are black is irrelevant. Educational institutions should educate young people, not act as the farm system for the NBA and NFL.

Regards,

Al

[adios]

FWIW I don't like the idea of an age limit in the NBA, it seems unfair to me. Basically I think the problems the league has is due to the fact that it's product is boring. FWIW coaches have emphasized defense a lot more over the years and thus it's a lot harder to make a basket now. More missed shots means a more boring game. I think the "hip-hop" culture issues are minor.

[four eight suited]

Maybe Jermain should read the Constitution before make these out of line claims. I dont agree with the age limit but he needs learn the difference between private and public enterprise.