I never wait for the turn to protect my hand

[aargh57]

That's right, and I know that I should. I can understand the concept behind it but I know I never do it. Is there any way to plug this leak. I guess I just have trouble recognizing the situations that I should do this. When I have a good hand that's vulnerable I usually bet or raise the flop rather then waiting to see if a safe card comes on the turn. Any suggestions to break me of this?

[KaiShin]

If you never wait for the turn to bet and raise your good hands, you'll never be making that big of a mistake.

[SheridanCat]

If you hand is vulnerable to draws, you need to make the draws pay to continue. In a small stakes game (you don't mention what limits you play or what the games are like) playing tricky can backfire when someone hits an unlikely draw because you gave a cheap or free card.

Don't slowplay marginal hands. Bet em and raise em. Or fold em.

Regards,

T

[Dead]

But in some cases it is better to wait to raise on the turn. If you have a good but vulnerable hand, then it is sometimes better to wait till the turn, where if a safe card hits, your equity can jump dramatically.

[KaiShin]

In some cases yes, but overapplying this concept is a lot more dangerous than underapplying it.

[aargh57]

Thanks for the help. I mainly play Party 2/4 and crypto 1/2 (brit pound tables lately) and the games tend not to be very wild as I play during the daytime (U.S.) I guess this is probably the main reason that I don't try this play, namely most games I play at don't get huge preflop pots so I can protect them with a flop bet/raise. I did try it today but unfortunately I didn't write the hand number down to get the info. If I remember correctly I had AJ and flopped TPTK. I checked and it was bet on my immediate left and 2 callers behind. I just called and waited for the turn to bet if a safe card came. I reasoned that a flop raise wouldn't chase anyone out and if I got a good turn card I could protect my hand better. Anyway, thanks again for the responses.

[SheridanCat]

[ QUOTE ]
But in some cases it is better to wait to raise on the turn. If you have a good but vulnerable hand, then it is sometimes better to wait till the turn, where if a safe card hits, your equity can jump dramatically.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not meaning to be argumentative or disrespectful when I ask this. Can you give an example of this? I understand that if the turn card doesn't help, your equity goes up, but I'm not sure I follow why you'd want to let your opponents draw cheaply.

Again, I'm not trying to be a smart ass, I really want to see a situation.

Thanks,

T

[Altaslim]

One technique to use is to bet the flop and if (and only if) you are quite sure someone else will bet, c/r the turn and bet the river. This has been a better tactic for me to protect hands than raising the flop, but it is situationally appropriate.

[Greg J]

This will not be a huge leak in your game.

[i wanna be me]

[ QUOTE ]
If you never wait for the turn to bet and raise your good hands, you'll never be making that big of a mistake.

[/ QUOTE ]

[Pov]

[ QUOTE ]
Can you give an example of this? I understand that if the turn card doesn't help, your equity goes up, but I'm not sure I follow why you'd want to let your opponents draw cheaply.


[/ QUOTE ]

Say you have 99 in late position, 3 players limp, you limp and the small blind completes. Flop comes 3s 4s 8d . . . You can go ahead and bet or raise when the action comes to you, but you might consider checking or just calling and seeing what happens. A bet isn't going to make many hands fold getting 7:1. AK, AQ, AJ, AT, KQ, 65, 45, 89 . . . these hands are probably calling you and practically half the cards in the deck are going to scare you on the turn. If there is a bet and a couple of calls your raise is certainly not going to fold any of these people and once again, any A, K, 8, spade, etc . . . Oh yeah and you don't even like the 9 of spades that much . . .

Okay - so that is an extreme example, but it happens. You know your bet or raise isn't going to win the hand right there and the next card could easily be a bad one. Now when the bet doubles on the turn you can exert a lot more leverage and maybe that A8 will bet right into you again when you can really make it pay this time instead of having it check to you and letting the early position spade draw make another profitable call.

As other posters have stated it's not really costing you a lot to go ahead and raise here on the flop. But consider waiting for the turn in this type of situation on occassion.

[KaiShin]

Here is an interesting example of waiting for the turn (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=micro&Number=1986472&Forum =,,,f21,,,&Words=waiting%20%2Bfor%20%2Bthe%20%2Btu rn&Searchpage=2&Limit=25&Main=1986461&Search=true& where=bodysub&Name=19813&daterange=1&newerval=1&ne wertype=m&olderval=&oldertype=&bodyprev=#Post19864 72) , although its not for protection purposes, but more for value betting when we have an equity edge.

In your example, leading the flop would be the correct play. This is because of several things. First of all, with no PF raise, you have no idea where the bet is going to come from. Since you're the SB and first to act, the only way you're going to get to face the field with 2 cold is if it gets checked to Button and he bets it. Secondly, TPTK is not the type of hand that you need to protect at this point. Your concern should be getting money in the pot while you think you have the best hand.

By checking this flop, your reasoning then becomes correct since it was led out to your immediate left, a flop raise then becomes useless.

[Bartman387]

I understand this concept, for example with the above 99 example, you only want to call/check on the flop in case another /images/graemlins/spade.gif comes on the turn you can fold cheaply.

But, maybe I am just too aggressive, at that point you probably have the best hand, so someone with two /images/graemlins/spade.gif's will probably stay in to your bet/raise, but you want them to pay more while they chase that draw. All the while, by betting/raising you could chase out some people with only one /images/graemlins/spade.gif therefore increasing your odds of winning.

Am I totally off on this? Or do I get it and it just may not fit my style of play, thats why I dont see why to use this method?

[splashpot]

[ QUOTE ]
Can you give an example of this? I understand that if the turn card doesn't help, your equity goes up, but I'm not sure I follow why you'd want to let your opponents draw cheaply.

[/ QUOTE ]
Check out the "protecting your hand" section of SSH. Specifically the sub-sections titled "when a raise will not protect your hand", "when the flop bet comes from your left", and "when the pot is extremely large".

[Pov]

I agree you very probably have the best hand and it is good to make them pay for their draw. The trick here is that they are paying profitably for their draw. They have the odds to call so they're not really making a mistake to do so. So your raise didn't really hurt them all that much. It is also very likely to be checked to you on the turn now and your bet will once again set up a profitable call for the draws out against you. This is all compounded by the fact that just plain overcards can easily beat you.

By waiting for the turn you hope to a) dodge a bad card and b) keep the pot small so when you bet or raise the turn you force draws to either fold or make an unprofitable call. To borrow from Sklansky/Malmuth/Miller: When the other players make mistakes, you win!

You're not too aggressive. You can actually be *more* aggressive by waiting for the turn occasionally. But as others have posted, you're probably not losing all that much by doing what you're doing now.

One last observation, not that it is necessarily likely, but if we give one of your opponents QJs you're actually charging yourself on the flop. He's more likely to win than you are. He doesn't know that of course, but you're not going to steal it from him. If he hits a Q, J or spade he will be playing to the showdown and if he misses all these he will not pay off your river bet.

[aargh57]

I thought about it last night and I agree that my TPTK hand was a bad example. I probably just lost a bunch of bets on the flop by doing it. As I said, I couldn't remember the hand exactly and it could've been JJ,TT,or 99 with a favorable flop. Anyway, thanks for the replies/discussion.

[jedi]

Someone needs to find Ed Miller's post about "charging the flush draws." Here, you're not charging the flush draw. You and the flush draw are charging the other hands, hands like 2nd pair, (or even top pair in this case, since you have an overpair).

In the specific 99 case, I'd lead out here. The pot isn't big. Waiting til the turn is a concept better used when the pot is big and a bet or raise on the flop won't cause loose callers to make a mistake, whereas a double sized-bet on the turn would.

[Pov]

[ QUOTE ]
Someone needs to find Ed Miller's post about "charging the flush draws." Here, you're not charging the flush draw. You and the flush draw are charging the other hands, hands like 2nd pair, (or even top pair in this case, since you have an overpair).

[/ QUOTE ]

I think there are a couple, but this (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=micro&Number=459301&fpart= 1&PHPSESSID=) is the one I have bookmarked. Looks like you actually posted in it so it's probably the one you mean.

[Holden97]

[ QUOTE ]
Say you have 99 in late position,

[/ QUOTE ]

I had that situation Tuesday at about 6:00 or 7:00 am playing 3/6 at the Mirage. Thinking about it later, I was thinking I should have waited to the turn to keep the odds down for the chasers. My hand was a little different after that.

[ QUOTE ]
3 players limp, you limp and the small blind completes. Flop comes 3s 4s 8d . . . You can go ahead and bet or raise when the action comes to you, but you might consider checking or just calling and seeing what happens.

[/ QUOTE ]

I got 9 limpers pre-flop on my hand (including me); I felt like raising would've built a bigger pot, but wouldn't have knocked anyone out. The flop came something like 3 /images/graemlins/heart.gif 8 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 3 /images/graemlins/spade.gif .

[ QUOTE ]
A bet isn't going to make many hands fold getting 7:1. AK, AQ, AJ, AT, KQ, 65, 45, 89 . . . these hands are probably calling you and practically half the cards in the deck are going to scare you on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agree. No bets to me in late position, so I bet and get 7 callers on the flop. Feeling pretty good about my nines and threes since no-one bet or check-raised me.

[ QUOTE ]
If there is a bet and a couple of calls your raise is certainly not going to fold any of these people and once again, any A, K, 8, spade, etc . . . Oh yeah and you don't even like the 9 of spades that much . . .

[/ QUOTE ]

Q /images/graemlins/club.gif came on the turn. I'm worried about the overcard, but no flush or good straight possibilities (T9 and JT only) and no bettors, so I bet again. 5 callers but no raisers, so maybe I have a chance.

[ QUOTE ]
Okay - so that is an extreme example, but it happens. You know your bet or raise isn't going to win the hand right there and the next card could easily be a bad one. Now when the bet doubles on the turn you can exert a lot more leverage and maybe that A8 will bet right into you again when you can really make it pay this time instead of having it check to you and letting the early position spade draw make another profitable call.

[/ QUOTE ]

I had no spade to worry about, and the river was a 6 or 7 (I don't remember exactly). Had 3 callers and my nines held up. One player showed fours and no-one else showed. I thought overcards and somebody might have hit their 8 kicker.

[ QUOTE ]
As other posters have stated it's not really costing you a lot to go ahead and raise here on the flop. But consider waiting for the turn in this type of situation on occassion.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agree completely with this assessment. I might play it differently next time. My nines would have been an easy hand to get away from on that table because people only bet with a hand. I probably still would've called down though, since the pot was very large.