cantonese vs. mandarin

[jasonHoldEm]

I've always wanted to learn chinese...just wondering if anyone has any input on cantonese vs. mandrin. From what I understand cantonese is the dominant dialect outside of china, and since I have no real plans on visiting china itself I figure I should start there. If any of you guys speak chinese I'd appreciate any advice you can give. Primarily I'd just be learning it for my own self-interest, but I'd like to be able to use it if given the opportunity (i.e. without traveling to china).

Thanks,
J

[pshreck]

Mandarin oranges are delicious, I've never heard of a Cantonese orange. You should check your sources.

[Josh W]

I'm currently trying to teach myself Mandarin. What I've discovered about the two dialects is that Cantonese is spoken by about 5% of people in China. However, the Canton region of China is on (near) the water, so many Chinese immigrants are from the Canton region. The best guess I've heard is that 30% of Chinese-Americans speak Cantonese, and the rest speak Mandarin.

I just came back from Singapore, where English is widely spoken. I went with two Chinese girls who both speak Mandarin and not Cantonese, and they could speak to everybody. As such, I'm GUESSING that Mandarin is more common in Singapore than Cantonese. Further extrapolating, I'd guess that Mandarin is more popular in the world than Cantonese. There are some serious logical flaws in this thinking, but it's my thinking nonetheless!!

Josh

[Blarg]

Mandarin is the Northern Chinese dialect, and Cantonese the southern one. Mandarin is the official language of China and considered the language of the educated classes, as I understand it. Cantonese is what they speak in Hong Kong.

I always thought it would be great to know Chinese, because they have such an incredibly fascinating history and culture. What a task, though, to learn how to write in it and read it. It would be quite an accomplishment -- good luck on it!

[jedi]

Interesting hearing the comments. I speak Cantonese as my parents are both from the now-southern area of China (Hong Kong and Macao). I always thought more people spoke Mandarin outside of China simply because most people in China speak it. Goes to show you what I know.

If you're doing it for business, I"d pick Mandarin, but if you can pull off learning to read Chinese (which I can't, save for a few words), it won't matter.

[Rearden]

Mandarin. Though Cantonese is primarily what you might hear at your local Chinese restaurant, or from any of your friends in the US that may speak Chinese at home. Mandarin is the language of business and government for China officially and is generally understood by the majority of Cantonese speakers (its not always that way in reverse; Mandarin speakers knowing Cantonese). The demographics are changing I think with more and more movement from the PRC to the US and with more people from Taiwan and other regions (those that speak Cantonese, Southern Min, or Hakka or any number of other unique regional dialects) slowly morphing toward Mandarin. Since the PRC codified the study of language after Communist rule began [it was during this time that huge numbers of Cantonese speakers left for Taiwan or other foriegn countries; explaining the extent of Cantonese outside of China] these groups within China have been struggling to retain their native language [Mandarin is taught at schools and used at work whereas Southern Min may be the language used at home]... I'm almost certainly boring you with this but in short numbers and future trends are in favor of Mandarin dominating Chinese Linguistics (very few US schools teach Cantonese anymore while everyone is rushing to establish a center for East Asian Languages featuring Mandarin). Sorry for the drawn out response but as a long time student of Mandarin I think it's the way to go. Though many of my friends speak Cantonese at home the majority of popular movies, websites, newspapers, and interactions are today Mandarin. Also, Where do you plan on learning this? if you're still in college look for programs at your school or any near by colleges.. many US schools get obscene amounts of federal funding to promote asian language study and thus have solid programs filled with instructors that are either native speakers or experts in their area. Feel free to comment if you have any questions or message me.. if this post was incoherent I apologize, my Chinese class today featured a rather lengthy spoken exam. zai jian (good bye in Mandarin).

[Chris Daddy Cool]

I speak Cantonese but I took a quarter of Manderin at College. If you have no background in either of the two, I don't think you'd find one really harder than the other to learn, but I think Manderin is harder because of the tone system can be very tricky to hear especially if you're not particularly gifted in tone recognition (having a background in music will help you a lot).

manderin is the the main dialect in China. the reason why there's more cantonese spoken in America is because the majority of immigrants are Cantonese, coming in from the ports from the south, i.e. Hong Kong and Canton.

[Rearden]

Yeah, Tones suck... you need to have someone who really knows what they're doing to teach you Chinese (not a high school teacher who teaches math and spanish kind of deal), either a native speaker or someone who has spent decades with the language. With such quality instruction though it's actually not too hard to learn. The feeling of picking up a newspaper and reading it in Chinese or using the language in conversation with a stranger is well worth the effort though I promise you that. Besides.. once Asia catches the poker bug +ev :-)

[jasonHoldEm]

Thanks for the detailed explanation, answered a lot of my questions actually. I saw in a few other places where people have said there is a movement towards mandarin becoming more dominant (and also the fact that many cantonese speakers will learn mandarin as a second languange, but not vice-versa), so I guess that mandarin is a better way to go.

Although there is this really hot girl at my local chinese restaruant (and I know the family is from HK).

Thanks,
J

[daryn]

go cantonese just for the girl factor. i'm serious.

ni hao

[The Goober]

FWIW, I've always found mandarin to be more pleasing to the ear (although I don't speak either of them)

[TimM]

Your Mandarin is lousy. It causes my ears great discomfort. You bray like an ass! You are not to speak unless spoken to. It is too much to hope - you speak Cantonese?

[Chris Daddy Cool]

[ QUOTE ]
go cantonese just for the girl factor. i'm serious.

ni hao

[/ QUOTE ]

ni hao is mandarin dude.

[mostsmooth]

[ QUOTE ]
go cantonese just for the girl factor. i'm serious.

ni hao

[/ QUOTE ]
ni hao is mandarin, le ho is cant
oops, somebody else mentioned, sorry

[Blarg]

[ QUOTE ]
go cantonese just for the girl factor. i'm serious.

ni hao

[/ QUOTE ]

Hell yes. I see shockingly hot girls from Taiwan and Hong Kong all the time.

[theBruiser500]

why do you want to leanr chinese with no planst o go to china?

[theBruiser500]

[ QUOTE ]
go cantonese just for the girl factor. i'm serious.

ni hao

[/ QUOTE ]

ni hao? fu shao!!! that is mandarin for STFU. based on what are cantense speaking girls better than mandarin speaking girls?

[istewart]

Aspirations of becoming General Tso.

[astroglide]

i don't understand why somebody would want to learn chinese over japanese. there's the cantonese/mandarin issue, their communist government isn't exactly rolling out the red carpet (no pun intended) for visitors. japan has more going on in the business/technology world etc. i really don't get it.

[InchoateHand]

clearly the mandarin would kick the cantonese's ass, but not the bear's or elephant's. And it's not close.

[B Mando]

Why would you want to learn chinese? If you going through the asian phase its alright man. Everyone has gone through it...it will go away. I had the yellow fever in high school. Its gone now...Im healthy again.

[nothumb]

[ QUOTE ]
Your Mandarin is lousy. It causes my ears great discomfort. You bray like an ass! You are not to speak unless spoken to. It is too much to hope - you speak Cantonese?

[/ QUOTE ]

VNH.

BTW, I can curse in one of these languages, since the guy who taught me was from Hong Kong, I think it's Cantonese. So, don't bring your Cantonese girlfriend around me.

NT

[jen]

Mandarin.

[daryn]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In risposta di:</font><hr />
</font><blockquote><font class="small">In risposta di:</font><hr />
go cantonese just for the girl factor. i'm serious.

ni hao

[/ QUOTE ]

ni hao is mandarin dude.

[/ QUOTE ]

nowhere in my post did i mention that ni hao is cantonese.

[mostsmooth]

[ QUOTE ]
why do you want to leanr chinese with no planst o go to china?

[/ QUOTE ]
chinese girls (off the boat, not ABC) panties get wet if you speak their language

[mostsmooth]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
go cantonese just for the girl factor. i'm serious.

ni hao

[/ QUOTE ]

ni hao is mandarin dude.

[/ QUOTE ]

nowhere in my post did i mention that ni hao is cantonese.

[/ QUOTE ]
wow, another excuse from a sox fan, what a surprise

[mostsmooth]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Your Mandarin is lousy. It causes my ears great discomfort. You bray like an ass! You are not to speak unless spoken to. It is too much to hope - you speak Cantonese?

[/ QUOTE ]

VNH.

BTW, I can curse in one of these languages, since the guy who taught me was from Hong Kong, I think it's Cantonese. So, don't bring your Cantonese girlfriend around me.

NT

[/ QUOTE ]
chow ni ma (just kidding of course)
thats the only swearing i know

[daryn]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In risposta di:</font><hr />
</font><blockquote><font class="small">In risposta di:</font><hr />
</font><blockquote><font class="small">In risposta di:</font><hr />
</font><blockquote><font class="small">In risposta di:</font><hr />
go cantonese just for the girl factor. i'm serious.

ni hao

[/ QUOTE ]

ni hao is mandarin dude.

[/ QUOTE ]

nowhere in my post did i mention that ni hao is cantonese.

[/ QUOTE ]
wow, another excuse from a sox fan, what a surprise

[/ QUOTE ]

i don't get involved in silly meaningless baseball fan battles. see ya loser!

[mostsmooth]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
go cantonese just for the girl factor. i'm serious.

ni hao

[/ QUOTE ]

ni hao is mandarin dude.

[/ QUOTE ]

nowhere in my post did i mention that ni hao is cantonese.

[/ QUOTE ]
wow, another excuse from a sox fan, what a surprise

[/ QUOTE ]

i don't get involved in silly meaningless baseball fan battles. see ya loser!

[/ QUOTE ]
lighten up francis

[Duke]

It depends why you want to learn it. Cantonese is easier to mimic for me. Mandarin has a lot of grating slurring noises that I can't duplicate with the larynx I was born with.

Here's something that confuses me - why is there such a discrepancy between different versions of Chinese?

To those who don't know what I'm talking about, here's my semi-ignorant description of the problem. The languages are the same with different pronunciations. This would be simple to overcome, but it doesn't stop there. You convey concepts in different ways in different languages. In one dialect you might describe diarrhea as "loose bowels" and in another you'd describe it as "flying brown water." I don't know how to say that in any Chinese dialect, but I think it illustrates the point if you realize that in English either one of those descriptions would be understood, and in Chinese the wrong wording would leave the listener completely oblivious to what you were talking about.

So you can see that you have 2 languages, and you say the sounds differently, and beyond that you convey the ideas differently. It's more than just learning new pronunciations.

So... why in the hell is this the case? Is it because the language is so difficult to write that a lot of people never learn it very well, and you have a lot of borderline illiterate people learning by ear?

Or is it that the different regions of China are as different and basically hateful to each other as countries in other parts of the world, and they develop their own way of speaking out of spite?

I'm thinking out loud here, so I'm probably missing something. There are many other possible reasons for this, but I figured the minds in OOT would have a lot to offer.

~D

[InchoateHand]

[ QUOTE ]
Cantonese is easier to mimic for me.

[/ QUOTE ]

Me too. I just make a bunch of funny noises and pretend I'm crashing my car.

[Blarg]

[ QUOTE ]
i don't understand why somebody would want to learn chinese over japanese. there's the cantonese/mandarin issue, their communist government isn't exactly rolling out the red carpet (no pun intended) for visitors. japan has more going on in the business/technology world etc. i really don't get it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Chinese is probably going to be the language of this century. China's growth is both explosive and just beginning, whereas Japan's has been contracting. And even small rates of growth in a country as enormous as China means potentially huge opportunities. Mandarin is being taught much more these days because people are already starting to say that the last century was the American Century, and this one will be the Chinese century.

Lots of people are wanting to learn Mandarin just to get in on all that cash.

[Chris Daddy Cool]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
go cantonese just for the girl factor. i'm serious.

ni hao

[/ QUOTE ]


Hell yes. I see shockingly hot girls from Taiwan and Hong Kong all the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

most people from taiwan speak mandarin.

[Blarg]

The mandarin contingent mostly moved in with Chiang Kai Shek -- did their language move in earlier? Cuz Taiwan has been really a divided country culturally.

[Lawrence Ng]

Say POK GAI!!!!

First off, Cantonese is just but a small dialect spoken in Canton and Hong Kong. The other 95% of Chinese speak Mandarin. Taiwanese people also speak Manadarin.

If you go to HK, you will need Cantonese.

Anywhere else in China and Taiwan is mandarin..so you pick.

I speak fluent Cantonese, but ultimately wish I spoke Mandarin instead.

[Lawrence Ng]

[ QUOTE ]
go cantonese just for the girl factor. i'm serious.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wrong, the most beautiful of Chinese women are from North China...pure Mandarin.

Lawrence

[Lawrence Ng]

[ QUOTE ]

i don't understand why somebody would want to learn chinese over japanese. there's the cantonese/mandarin issue, their communist government isn't exactly rolling out the red carpet (no pun intended) for visitors. japan has more going on in the business/technology world etc. i really don't get it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I nominate this for most retarded OOT post of April.

Lawrence

[frank_iii]

If you're going to learn mandarin (or another language), the Pimsleur audio series is excellent, albeit expensive.

Mandarin I (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0671790617/qid=1113420822/sr=8-1/ref=pd_csp_1/103-6687761-2009443?v=glance&amp;s=books&amp;n=507846)

Mandarin II (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0743506618/qid=1113420822/sr=8-4/ref=pd_csp_4/103-6687761-2009443?v=glance&amp;s=books&amp;n=507846)

Mandarin III (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0743525469/qid=1113420822/sr=8-5/ref=pd_csp_5/103-6687761-2009443?v=glance&amp;s=books&amp;n=507846)

[astroglide]

i'm aware of china's blooming industrialization, unexpected upcoming demands for oil, etc. does that mean i'm going to want to go hang out in a country that doesn't exactly welcome me and chat with its expanded class of blue collar workers. i can see the immediate value for people in industrial markets, but i don't anticipate thinking "boy i could enjoy [this] if i understood chinese."

there are all kinds of video games, for example, i could play if i knew japanese. as a young adult male that actually has the ability to impact my life. knowledge that a country is on the verge of an economic upsurge may make me feel a little clever or "prepared" if i knew the language, but it wouldn't be a preparation for something that would actually affect my life.

lawrence, i would love to hear your ever-so-unbiased racial opinion how chinese could help me right now or tomorrow.

[Rearden]

"i don't understand why somebody would want to learn chinese over japanese. there's the cantonese/mandarin issue, their communist government isn't exactly rolling out the red carpet (no pun intended) for visitors. japan has more going on in the business/technology world etc. i really don't get it. "

Astro if you take a look at just about every future projection China is set to dominate Asia and become a real global economic power in the near future... that's an accepted fact among economists and diplomats and it's why people are taking China seriously. Japan is of course an industrialized and already developed nation but the point of significance is that China, once it reaches such a point of modernization, will have a far larger market, consumer base, manufacturing center.. it'll just be huge. As for the Communist government.. who knows how long that will last officially but in an economic sense its fracturing, they now allow foriegn investment, Taiwanese business interaction (everything from branching out onto the mainland to shipments across the once locked down Strait of Taiwan), etc. So that's becoming less and less of an issue and will likely stay its course of slowly reforming to a more demand oriented market, no more command socialism economics, in the future until one day it's just no longer the PRC. They welcome foriegn investment, and why not it's more money for them.. there are very very few documented cases of Chinese hostility toward outside companies in recent years. As for video games (and likely anime I'm sure), which you suggest are key to learning a foriegn language.. I have little to say. If you truly think that Japan has more economic potential and that their expansive game selection is indicative of this I can not help you.

As for Ng's comment on Mandarin girls.. my TA is from Beijing.. and damn.. she's a fine looking lady :-)

[astroglide]

[ QUOTE ]
As for video games (and likely anime I'm sure), which you suggest are key to learning a foriegn language.. I have little to say. If you truly think that Japan has more economic potential and that their expansive game selection is indicative of this I can not help you.

[/ QUOTE ]

i hate anime. but yeah, we all know i'm looking to be gainfully employed as a translator in the near future. so is everybody else, and that's why we should all learn chinese instead of something that can actually impact our life. the capability to be smug about future economics of a foreign country is more appealing.

china could be the most prosperous country in the world right now and it wouldn't matter to me because i don't encounter chinese people or chinese language media (movies, books, games, etc). i run into german stuff all the time because of board/card games, and there are all sorts of japanese-only entertainment things i would like to enjoy. the country also seems infinitely more tourist friendly.

so again, i implore you: how can knowing chinese actually help me right now or in the near/mid future? how can it help the average person who isn't looking to become a translator or do international business with chinese people?

[ QUOTE ]
my TA is from Beijing..

[/ QUOTE ]

i guess i should just take it on authority from a presumably chinese guy and a guy into to a chinese girl: chinese will somehow improve my life despite the fact that the only thing i ever see that is chinese are product manuals which already have english translations. and i don't even read those.

regardless of future economic conditions, i would say spanish is more valuable to the common person because mexicans are all over america and mexico is a short trip away. everybody's going to have their reasons for certain languages (such as mine for german/japanese) but i simply do not see how a random person would be better off learning chinese than some other language that they actually encounter. it's simply not pervasive in american life.

[Blarg]

[ QUOTE ]
i'm aware of china's blooming industrialization, unexpected upcoming demands for oil, etc. does that mean i'm going to want to go hang out in a country that doesn't exactly welcome me and chat with its expanded class of blue collar workers. i can see the immediate value for people in industrial markets, but i don't anticipate thinking "boy i could enjoy [this] if i understood chinese."

there are all kinds of video games, for example, i could play if i knew japanese. as a young adult male that actually has the ability to impact my life. knowledge that a country is on the verge of an economic upsurge may make me feel a little clever or "prepared" if i knew the language, but it wouldn't be a preparation for something that would actually affect my life.

lawrence, i would love to hear your ever-so-unbiased racial opinion how chinese could help me right now or tomorrow.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, you're a poker player. That's not the only job in the world. I agree that Mandarin may have little value to you; then again, it's not like Japanese necessarily would either.

But for college kids, it could be a valuable asset in the job market, especially if you live in the Pacific Rim.

And your interests are your own, but others are different. When I think of the vastness, beauty, and value of Chinese art and philosophy and literature, I can see the value of Chinese easily. I would love to be able to read original Chinese texts, or at least their equivalent in modern Chinese. Then again, some people are particularly fascinated by, oh, say...Egypt, or Spain or something. For me, I've always found China an incredibly interesting country. Its extremely old and continuous tradition of intellectual meritocracy makes it unique in the world, with a culture to be very proud of. Right now, I can only sample it as a distant outsider. But if I were to suddenly hit the lottery tomorrow or something and be able to do whatever I wanted in the world, learning Chinese would probably be a part of it. YMMV.

[Blarg]

I don't think anybody was teling you how to live your life, Astro, or telling anyone else how to live theirs. Even if they care, I think you got off subject.

And your argument for learning Spanish instead of Chinese is a lot better than your argument for learning Japanese instead of Chinese.

However, since as you note most of us are not going to make a living as translators anyway, that's not really either important or related to this thread. Check the title.

[Luzion]

Its pretty simple why. Its sort of like how people in the US call the same things in different ways. Some people might call Coca-Cola a soda while others call it pop. Or how in the US we call certain things with a different name then they do in the UK. Or how Mexican people call certain things a different name then they do in Spain. Goddamn I cant come up with any good examples of this though. But I think you know what I mean.

Compound this fact that there are many Chinese dialects. Theres Cantonese, Mandarin, Shanghai-nese, Fook Gah Wah, Toy San Wah, Huk Gah Wah, etc etc etc etc etc. Hell, even little obscure villages in the middle of nowhere probably have their own dialect. I have heard that even Taiwanese people speak a native style of Taiwanese, which is different then Mandarin. I myself am ABC but I speak Cantonese and Toy San Wah just to be able to communicate with some chinese people in San Francisco.

So if you figure that if a country as young as the US can call things differently then they do back in the UK, then its pretty obvious a large country with approx 4000 years of history and tons of different dialects would have different ways of expressing specific things or names or things.