Increasing VP$IP...

[x2ski]

Over my 108,000 hands of $3/$6 since 1/1/05, my VP$IP sits at a whopping 14.46. I don't like it, but after countless hours of searching the 2+2 forums and Google, I've yet to find areas to increase it.

At most of the $3/$6 tables that I find myself, a majority of the hands are raised preflop, most of the time by myself or another solid player (say what you will about me being a solid player /images/graemlins/smirk.gif).

As a result of my experience and research, I have narrowed the possible areas for increasing my VP$IP to two separate categories: cold calling seemingly-legitimate raises more often (e.g. cold-calling an EP raiser who is a solid player with ???), and calling raises (one small bet) from the Big Blind more often.

The only time I will cold-call raises in situations such as the example above is with AJs and KQs... the rest I'm either raising or mucking.

As far as the Big Blind play is concerned, I have been experimenting with Abdul Jalib's Big Blind Defense strategy for the last 30,000 or so hands. I haven't been capable of bringing myself to follow it precisely (i.e. calling a legitimate raise in the BB holding 42o), but his is a very uncomfortable concept to get used to.

Anyway, over these 30,000 hands, my VP$IP has not gone up markedly at all (14.68); however, my Folded BB to Steal has gone down to 55.90%. I don't know if this is still too much or too little, but the results I'm looking for aren't there.

Maybe I should begin cold-calling more often, but with what?

During my search for an answer to these questions, I have repeatedly seen other posters/bloggers ask if there is a specific source (publication, website etc.) to turn to for answers... there doesn't seem to be.

Given the PT stats that pop-up on PlayerView regarding many of the players I compete with on a daily basis, I am sure there are many others who would love to know how you 17-22% VP$IPers do it, including myself.

What say you?

[MEbenhoe]

This may sound crazy, but have you considered the possibility that instead of including more cold-calls, possibly 3 betting in certain spots where you're currently folding? This is a huge generalization, but its hard to be more specific without more information.

[Harv72b]

What pocket pairs (if any) are you folding when it's raised ahead of you?

I run a VP$IP of around 19 on Party 3/6 (much smaller sample size than yours, but VP$IP firms up pretty quickly). I've enjoyed quite a bit of success with this.

Anyway, I think some likely places where you're cheating yourself out of some flops would be:

-small pocket pairs. Limp them from any position, except first in from CO or Button--then you raise them.
-suited connectors and semi-connectors. Depending on how big the cards are, you obviously need some limpers ahead of you to justify the call, but these are also legit blind stealing hands, especially if you know the blinds are tight and/or weak.
-AXo hands. In most 3/6 games, you can profitably raise ATo from any position outside the blinds (unless first in or vs. a late limper from the blinds, when you'd obviously want to raise). I've also found that you can often limp behind a couple players in LP with A9-A7o, possibly even raising A9o. You have to be pretty comfortable with your postflop play, though. And I will almost always call a raise from the BB with any A, although I haven't had enough examples to get an accurate guage on how I do with that play.
-Expand your stealing hand standards. You didn't address this aspect of your game in the OP, so I really don't know how much (if any) would be applicable.

That's what I can think of off the top of my head; in all honesty, much of it is so instinctual that I'm not even sure if I could write it all out given the time & motivation. Then again, people from the SS forum will likely tell you that I push my hand selection a little too far from time to time. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[x2ski]

[ QUOTE ]
This may sound crazy, but have you considered the possibility that instead of including more cold-calls, possibly 3 betting in certain spots where you're currently folding? This is a huge generalization, but its hard to be more specific without more information.

[/ QUOTE ]

3-bets in this situation (EP raise from solid player with me in MP/LP) would normally include AKo, AQs & TT-AA. This is an obviously different situation from facing a MP/LP raise from a solid player while on the Button/CO, but I'm not too concerned about that situation at the moment.

Am I missing something?

[x2ski]

Thanks a lot for the post... I have actually started to reduce my limping with small pocket pairs and small suited aces in EP since my 100,000 hand review showed me losing bling with all of them, but I'll take that into consideration.

As far as blind stealing is concerned, I believe that I have greatly increased that aspect of my game so far in 2005. My attempt to steal sits at around 37%... again, I don't know if that is too much or too little, but it seems to be profitable.

I'm beginning to play with ATo a bit more, but A9o-A7o scare the hell outta me lol.

Sometimes I find myself limping in with a hand just because it seems like one that you higher VP$IPers use, but I don't know why I'm doing it, and the results are rarely good /images/graemlins/confused.gif.

I would give my left testicle for a 19% VP$IP (my right one and I have a history)

[JTrout]

I sit at around 13.5 VP$IP, playing Party 3-6, and have had good results.
Like you, I've looked for places to play more hands.
Every time I take a strong look at hand selection, my VP$IP goes down a 1/2 percent! /images/graemlins/tongue.gif
So I can't give you any good advice, except to say that playing fewer hands makes 4 tabling easier!

[x2ski]

[ QUOTE ]
So I can't give you any good advice, except to say that playing fewer hands makes 4 tabling easier!

[/ QUOTE ]

And six-tabling! /images/graemlins/cool.gif

Or does it??? /images/graemlins/crazy.gif

[SinCityGuy]

[ QUOTE ]
Over my 108,000 hands of $3/$6 since 1/1/05, my VP$IP sits at a whopping 14.46. I don't like it,

[/ QUOTE ]

There's absolutely nothing wrong with this number at 3/6. If you're playing a 1/2 or 2/3 blind structure, you'd want to be a few points higher.

[TimM]

I've played with you a bit at 3/6. We are about the same in VP$IP.

I don't think adding a few cold calls or 3-bets will increase your numbers much, maybe a point at most, because the situations simply don't come up so much to do more than that.

Some things you can do is, look at the raiser's PFR% and ASB%. I find the attempt to steal blinds number (ASB%) and the comparison to PFR very important as it shows how much this person thinks about position and about being first in when raising. The ASB% only applies to first in raises from the Button or CO, but you can also infer a lot about his open raising from earlier positions as well.

Think about what a guy could have, when his PFR (or ASB as his position is later and he is first in) is greater than your own VP$IP. He is raising with crap you won't even limp in with. Crap that won't be able to even call one SB on most flops because it will be a total miss most of the time. Of course you can now 3-bet much more liberally, and call from the blinds. But you have to be ready to outplay him after the flop. These guys will remember what you do, so it gets easier once you nail them a few times. And to do this it is important you read him well and get away quick when he is ahead, or you will never get rid of him when you want him out (like when he has only one overcard to the flop, but two to your actual hand because you 3-bet him with a mid pair).

But to add more than a half point or so you really have to start limping a lot, especially open limping, something we both don't do very much. That would mean all the small pairs, suited aces, and suited connectors that we are folding when no one has yet limped. But I don't like doing this in these aggressive games where almost every pot is raised pre-flop, so I think I will stick to my 14% and be happy. I suppose you could do it if your table selection is good and you get a lot of tables that play like the lower limits.

[BusterStacks]

This thread is gold to me. I have nearly the same VPIP and cannot for the life of me find where to loosen up.

[Nightwish]

I don't play 3/6, but here are my 2 cents anyway...

I strongly believe that there's more than one way to skin a cat. There are posters here with a VP$IP of 19 who are making less than 2 BB/100, and there are people with a VP$IP of 14.5 who are making much more than that, so don't get fixated on this VP$IP number alone.

I think what is more important is to look at your overall stats. If your VP$IP is 14.5, then what is your AF? It should be comfortably above 2. What is your PFR? If it's less than 9, you need to be raising/reraising more preflop. How often are you stealing the blinds? It should be about a third of the time.

[SinCityGuy]

[ QUOTE ]
There are posters here with a VP$IP of 19 who are making less than 2 BB/100, and there are people with a VP$IP of 14.5 who are making much more than that

[/ QUOTE ]

This is the single best statement in this entire thread.

[TimM]

I don't see why so many people are desperate to do this. If you should be at 18% and you are only 15%, you are tossing the bottom 16% of the hands you should be playing.

How much win rate will the bottom 16% of your hands represent, when the top 16% (AA-TT, AKs, AQs) represents almost 2/3 of your overall win rate.

[admiralfluff]

[ QUOTE ]
At most of the $3/$6 tables that I find myself, a majority of the hands are raised preflop, most of the time by myself or another solid player

[/ QUOTE ]

TABLE SELECTION

I wouldn't play long at a table like this. I played with you at one such table earlier this week, but did so only because I was seriously pissed off, and had t oget away from the monkeys for a couple minutes to cool down. I don't play at the tables you described. I get up, and find ones where LAGs are raising. If I'm in LP, I want to be able to cold call with AQo. If you're 8-tabling it will be tough, or nearly impossible, to stay at good tables. It takes a good bit of work to find nice tables, but it's worth it. I have been cruising at just under 21 VPIP, and a respectable win rate. I only play 2 tables though.

I think multitabling always tends to make you tighter.

[spydog]

[ QUOTE ]

As far as the Big Blind play is concerned, I have been experimenting with Abdul Jalib's Big Blind Defense strategy for the last 30,000 or so hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you have a link to this?

[Bluffoon]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't see why so many people are desperate to do this. If you should be at 18% and you are only 15%, you are tossing the bottom 16% of the hands you should be playing.

How much win rate will the bottom 16% of your hands represent, when the top 16% (AA-TT, AKs, AQs) represents almost 2/3 of your overall win rate.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not much but it will get you more action on your better hands. I do agree though that 14% is tight but not overly tight for 3/6. That said I have been able to make a small profit open raising AXs from mid position. I also occasionally three bet with a hand like 77-99 against more than average aggressively raisers and I have been completing more from the small blind with pretty good results with stuff like KXs and suited connectors and one gappers. This would bring your VPIP up a little and add some deception to your game. Just pick your spots and play them carefully.

[Harv72b]

I went through my database and found that I do have a few hands on you (66 total). FWIW, over that very small sample, I have you with a VPIP of 9.09 and a PFR of 3.03. Unfortunately, you haven't shown down very many hands over that span, but I did find one that I would have played differently preflop:

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: x2ski is UTG+1 with 8/images/graemlins/club.gif, 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif. MP3 posts a blind of $3.
UTG calls, x2ski calls....

I don't remember the exact table conditions, but this is a situation where I would be raising nearly every time. You have a poster behind you that you want out of the hand, and ideally you would like to end up HU vs. that UTG limper; you definitely don't want to build up the pot odds enough to encourage more limpers behind you. As it turned out in this hand, UTG had limped AA and you wound up paying off 2 BBs (capped flop, no betting on later streets), but I think this is emblematic of what I was talking about with small pockets--you need to play them more aggressively, especially with a hand like 88 in this situation. The guy who limps ahead of you will rarely have a better hand.

[ QUOTE ]
I'm beginning to play with ATo a bit more, but A9o-A7o scare the hell outta me lol.

[/ QUOTE ]

As I said, I have a much smaller sample size than you do (about 18k 3/6 hands), but FWIW I went through and looked at my stats for A9o-A7o:

A9o - VP$IP 28.65, PFR 17.54, LwPC 8.19, Win % 14.04, BB/hand 0.02 (171 times)
A8o - VP$IP 19.76, PFR 6.59, LwPC 8.98, Win % 13.17, BB/hand 0.17 (167 times)
A7o - VP$IP 15.34, PFR 6.82, LwPC 3.98, Win % 12.50, BB/hand 0.13 (176 times)

I am generally only playing these hands from CO and behind (I don't have a VPIP above 7 from any earlier position), and I have actually never VPIP'd with any of these hands from earlier than MP2).

Now, I haven't played more than 2 tables at once on 3/6, so I can probably get away with more borderline plays than someone 4- or more-tabling. But even over this small a sample, I think this shows that a player is leaving money on the table by folding these hands too often--I've made more than 50 BBs with these three hands alone.

[diebitter]

I'm a newbie (in the 100's of hands, not thousands), so maybe I'm out of order here, but I seem to be playing profitably with a VPIP around 20-24. I mostly follow the hands/guidelines from the low-limit HE books for beginners, and that I think takes me to about 20 VPIP, and know enough to play a little looser against loose tables and players, and spot the TA's and very Tight passives, and not take them on without nuts/good hands. I've recently added playing small pairs in loose games where there are at least 5 callers and no raising likely (ie when I'm in LP or button). I think this gives me implied odds of at least 8 to 1, and I'm playing specifically to get trips (about 8-1 chance). No trips, I'll stay in for the checks only, otherwise it's a fold. I'm still not sure whether it's profitable yet, but I'm pretty sure it's not unprofitable. This has pushed my VPIP to just below 24 (along with some looser playing of low suited connectors in the SB in loose games).

[IndieMatty]

3-bet 99.

Screw around with cold-calling 88 in multiway pots. Or three betting with position against a weaker player.

[x2ski]

[ QUOTE ]
Think about what a guy could have, when his PFR (or ASB as his position is later and he is first in) is greater than your own VP$IP. He is raising with crap you won't even limp in with. Crap that won't be able to even call one SB on most flops because it will be a total miss most of the time. Of course you can now 3-bet much more liberally, and call from the blinds.

[/ QUOTE ]

I love those guys, especially when I have position on them... I definitely 3-bet and call in the blinds more often when up against these characters.

What sucks is not having position with AQo, and someone like you 3-bets him before me with ATs and I'm forced to fold lol (right?)

[ QUOTE ]
But to add more than a half point or so you really have to start limping a lot, especially open limping, something we both don't do very much. That would mean all the small pairs, suited aces, and suited connectors that we are folding when no one has yet limped. But I don't like doing this in these aggressive games where almost every pot is raised pre-flop, so I think I will stick to my 14% and be happy.

[/ QUOTE ]

But doesn't it frustrate you reading about all these guys with higher VP$IPs? Especially talk of VP$IPs pushing 30% (or more) at $15/$30 being considered good? Maybe $3/$6 just isn't the game for that, I dunno.

[x2ski]

[ QUOTE ]
I think what is more important is to look at your overall stats. If your VP$IP is 14.5, then what is your AF? It should be comfortably above 2. What is your PFR? If it's less than 9, you need to be raising/reraising more preflop. How often are you stealing the blinds? It should be about a third of the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

AF has decreased a bit since realizing it was significantly higher that others on these boards. I also decided to chill out a bit after I caused a complete maniac to slow down with his KK against my TT one day (he won). Anyway, my AF is still at 2.59 (not including preflop).

PFR: 8.65 (I believe it is increasing recently)

Blind Steal Attempts: 36.46

[x2ski]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

As far as the Big Blind play is concerned, I have been experimenting with Abdul Jalib's Big Blind Defense strategy for the last 30,000 or so hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you have a link to this?

[/ QUOTE ]

I dunnnooooo.... I hear it's a bit controversial around here.

Ok ok, you seem like a nice guy: link (http://web.archive.org/web/20031203192945/www.posev.com/poker/holdem/strategy/index.html)

[x2ski]

[ QUOTE ]
Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: x2ski is UTG+1 with 8/images/graemlins/club.gif, 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif. MP3 posts a blind of $3.
UTG calls, x2ski calls....

I don't remember the exact table conditions, but this is a situation where I would be raising nearly every time. You have a poster behind you that you want out of the hand, and ideally you would like to end up HU vs. that UTG limper; you definitely don't want to build up the pot odds enough to encourage more limpers behind you.

[/ QUOTE ]

Currently I'm raising 88/99 (sometimes 77) when first in, but if there are one or more limpers before me and I'm in EP/EMP, I just call to encourage limpers behind me. These hands want many or few opponents right? In later position with one limper, I'm raising all day long.

[x2ski]

[ QUOTE ]
3-bet 99

[/ QUOTE ]

you so crazee...

Seriously though, I have been, and it can be quite fun!

[flair1239]

At 15/30 I think it is easier to run a higher VPIP because of the 2/3 blind structure. I think in HEFAP S&M, recommend playing almost any two cards in an unraised pot with a limper or two (don't quote me).

In general, (I saw this earlier but it bears repeating) on a tough table you probably are right, you should not be playing to many more hands. Where you can get iffy, is in LP against BAD players.

So once again table selection becomes important. This has been a focus area for the last two months for me. The worse the players the more hands that you can play. For the games you are decribing you are probably correct in saying that you can't work in too many more hands.

However against bad players your VPIP will increase naturally. Because 1) You should be doing more isolation raises from middle and LP. 2) You can lower your limping standards in the CO and on the button (some of these guys are saying they regualrly go as low as Q5s against bad players.).

That is the theory as I understand it. At 5/10 I am running around 18% and I don't think I get too goofy. However my WR is also below 2BB/100, so I probably need a crapload of work on my post flop play.

[x2ski]

[ QUOTE ]
So once again table selection becomes important. This has been a focus area for the last two months for me. The worse the players the more hands that you can play. For the games you are decribing you are probably correct in saying that you can't work in too many more hands.

However against bad players your VPIP will increase naturally. Because 1) You should be doing more isolation raises from middle and LP. 2) You can lower your limping standards in the CO and on the button (some of these guys are saying they regualrly go as low as Q5s against bad players.).

[/ QUOTE ]

So playing during the weekdays is probably a very bad idea... Table selection seems non-existent during this time.

[x2ski]

[ QUOTE ]
my WR is also below 2BB/100

[/ QUOTE ]

Mine too, and it's really beginning to harsh my gig

[ QUOTE ]
so I probably need a crapload of work on my post flop play.

[/ QUOTE ]

I believe that I do too. Do you find yourself not value betting enough, or not folding enough when you're pretty sure you are beaten?

What about the two combined? For example, you value-bet a ragged board on the river with your AA, and a loose-passive raises or check-raises you... clear fold or what? These are the tougher situations that I tend to deal with.

[Nightwish]

[ QUOTE ]

But doesn't it frustrate you reading about all these guys with higher VP$IPs? Especially talk of VP$IPs pushing 30% (or more) at $15/$30 being considered good?

[/ QUOTE ]
I submit that anyone whose VP$IP is pushing 30 or more is not good and is in fact pretty far from the optimum.

[Nightwish]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think what is more important is to look at your overall stats. If your VP$IP is 14.5, then what is your AF? It should be comfortably above 2. What is your PFR? If it's less than 9, you need to be raising/reraising more preflop. How often are you stealing the blinds? It should be about a third of the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

AF has decreased a bit since realizing it was significantly higher that others on these boards. I also decided to chill out a bit after I caused a complete maniac to slow down with his KK against my TT one day (he won). Anyway, my AF is still at 2.59 (not including preflop).

PFR: 8.65 (I believe it is increasing recently)

Blind Steal Attempts: 36.46

[/ QUOTE ]
My advice: increase your preflop aggression by about 1 point (you're probably not reraising enough with hands like 99, 88, KQs, etc.) and decrease your postflop aggression to something like 2.3. Your blind steal attempts look about right.

[Nightwish]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
my WR is also below 2BB/100

[/ QUOTE ]

Mine too, and it's really beginning to harsh my gig


[/ QUOTE ]
Believe me when I tell you that it's the other aspects of your play that are screwing you up, not your VP$IP.

[flair1239]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
my WR is also below 2BB/100

[/ QUOTE ]

Mine too, and it's really beginning to harsh my gig

[ QUOTE ]
so I probably need a crapload of work on my post flop play.

[/ QUOTE ]

I believe that I do too. Do you find yourself not value betting enough, or not folding enough when you're pretty sure you are beaten?

What about the two combined? For example, you value-bet a ragged board on the river with your AA, and a loose-passive raises or check-raises you... clear fold or what? These are the tougher situations that I tend to deal with.

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly, I miss river value bets because of minimal scare cards (three to a flush comes to mind). In contrast as you said, I am too willing to continue past a turn check-raise, the problem here is that I don't want to look weak folding.

I think I am ok on the river, but yeah I do look for excuses to call.

I am getting better though. My problem is that I don't know which hands to post. Because the ones that are iffy are just so situational. Many times Istart typing a post and just say f*** it, because I have trouble describing why I did what I did.

[x2ski]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

But doesn't it frustrate you reading about all these guys with higher VP$IPs? Especially talk of VP$IPs pushing 30% (or more) at $15/$30 being considered good?

[/ QUOTE ]
I submit that anyone whose VP$IP is pushing 30 or more is not good and is in fact pretty far from the optimum.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nate tha' Great's 15/30 Classification Scheme (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=holdem&Number=1601084&Foru m=,,,,,,All_Forums,,,,,,&Words=&Searchpage=5&Limit =25&Main=1601008&Search=true&where=&Name=11847&dat erange=&newerval=&newertype=&olderval=&oldertype=& bodyprev=#Post1601084)

However, I guess the increased VP$IP is due to the 2/3 blind structure.

[SA125]

n/m

[pokerjunky]

I dont know if anyone has ever done this, but I ran a filter of all the different player icons in my database with at least 100 hands, and the LAG's and sLAG's are doing the best as far as BB/100 hands go. I've got about 40,000 hands at 2/4 and 25,000 hands at 3/6 logged in. The TAG's are averaging 2.0 BB/100 hands, the sLAG's (21% VPIP and above) are averaging 2.8, and the LAG's(30% and above), are at 5.2 believe it or not.

I'm having a hard time trying to figure out how they do it because I'm only showing a profit with certain hands in certain positions, and they're limping crap like JTo from EP and making a killing. The only explanation I have for this is that their only playing one table so they are very focused on whats going on and may be taking extensive notes. I also think that the LAG's may be using an ultra aggressive playing style and are probably taking down a lot of pots with stone cold bluffs in exchange for a higher variance.

[flair1239]

More likley the people appearing as maniacs in your database are on a hot run of cards. Also when a LAG wins, he wins big, but when he loses it is only a buy-in. Also if a LAG is around for a long time, it is usually because he is winning. Hence the LAGs that you have 100 hands or so on, are there that long because they are winning. When a LAG is losing he will lose quickly, thus will not mee your min hands requirement.

Simalarly some of the SLA-P types who are showing a loss, are probably TAGS who are not hitting some of their draws.

I tend to think that it takes many hands to true out a WR.

[Octopus]

[ QUOTE ]
Given the PT stats that pop-up on PlayerView regarding many of the players I compete with on a daily basis, I am sure there are many others who would love to know how you 17-22% VP$IPers do it, including myself.

[/ QUOTE ]

Assuming you respect some of those players, just go through their pre-flop play and find hands you would have folded.

However, I think you have hit on the true "problem". You play a fair amount during the day, meaning aggressive games. You play in a 1/3 blind structure. (This alone is probably costing you a point compared to a 1/2 blind structure.) I think 15% is just fine in these games.

[x2ski]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Given the PT stats that pop-up on PlayerView regarding many of the players I compete with on a daily basis, I am sure there are many others who would love to know how you 17-22% VP$IPers do it, including myself.

[/ QUOTE ]

Assuming you respect some of those players, just go through their pre-flop play and find hands you would have folded.

[/ QUOTE ]

Unfortunately, I've already done that, and couldn't find anything worthwhile.

[Nightwish]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

But doesn't it frustrate you reading about all these guys with higher VP$IPs? Especially talk of VP$IPs pushing 30% (or more) at $15/$30 being considered good?

[/ QUOTE ]
I submit that anyone whose VP$IP is pushing 30 or more is not good and is in fact pretty far from the optimum.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nate tha' Great's 15/30 Classification Scheme (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=holdem&Number=1601084&Foru m=,,,,,,All_Forums,,,,,,&Words=&Searchpage=5&Limit =25&Main=1601008&Search=true&where=&Name=11847&dat erange=&newerval=&newertype=&olderval=&oldertype=& bodyprev=#Post1601084)

However, I guess the increased VP$IP is due to the 2/3 blind structure.

[/ QUOTE ]
Somehow I missed that thread.

Nate is a good player, but I strongly disagree with his ratings. A 27/13 player is a LAG, and barring absolutely spectacular postflop play, is generally leaking money.

Also, I took his comment regarding 30/10 being the average as meaning that it's the average of all players, not the average of the TAGs. I don't know if that's true, I guess I can run the numbers tonight.

[bicyclekick]

Just cause your bb/100 is under 2 don't feel bad. You're still better than almost everyone around here. You're at least beating the game.

[x2ski]

[ QUOTE ]
Just cause your bb/100 is under 2 don't feel bad. You're still better than almost everyone around here. You're at least beating the game.

[/ QUOTE ]

I wanted to come up with a snappy remark to this comment, just because it came from someone who pretty much crushes whatever level they choose to play at (AFAIK), but my mind is blank.

Regardless, I don't feel bad... I feel mediocre. I don't like feeling mediocre. I've set goals of improving my game, and I am not accomplishing those goals; therefore, I am digging around in every corner to find ways to improve.

Thanks for the pat on the back though /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[TimM]

[ QUOTE ]
I caused a complete maniac to slow down with his KK against my TT one day (he won).

[/ QUOTE ]

I was doing this too. Giving too much action when behind is what you want to get them to do.

I think we get it drummed into our head so much that calling is bad that we forget that it's correct sometimes, and feel like we played the hand weakly when we just call the turn and river and find our opponent had a weaker hand than we thought. The problem is, if you play it more strongly it gives them the choice of folding when weak and re-raising when strong. But checking to an aggressive player usually leaves them no choice, they feel compelled to bet no matter what their hand is.

Here's a hand I got berated for twice.

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, <font color="#666666">6 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 caps</font>, Hero calls.

Flop: (9.33 SB) 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif, J/images/graemlins/club.gif, A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 bets</font>, Hero calls.

Turn: (5.66 BB) 5/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 bets</font>, Hero calls.

River: (7.66 BB) A/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 bets</font>, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 9.66 BB

He had QQ and MHIG. He starts berating me for calling my kings with an ace on the flop. I should have kept my mouth shut but said something like I figured he was more likely to have queens. So now he starts berating me for being weak and not raising.

But to me this hand is simple. I can't fold because there are more hands than not in his range that I beat, and I can't raise because I make less when ahead (he folds), and lose more when behind (he raises).

[x2ski]

[ QUOTE ]
He had QQ and MHIG. He starts berating me for calling my kings with an ace on the flop. I should have kept my mouth shut but said something like I figured he was more likely to have queens. So now he starts berating me for being weak and not raising.

[/ QUOTE ]

Funny stuff /images/graemlins/smile.gif

I also understand what you're saying. Lately I've been doing a lot more check-calling at what I believe to be the appropriate times, thus reducing my aggro factor a bit (it was in the high 2s).

[TimM]

[ QUOTE ]
Regardless, I don't feel bad... I feel mediocre. I don't like feeling mediocre. I've set goals of improving my game, and I am not accomplishing those goals;

[/ QUOTE ]

I know the feeling, I was below 1BB/100 at 3/6. But even at that rate my bankroll can grow without limits. I moved up to 5/10 with 500BB and am much happier with my performance.

[ QUOTE ]
therefore, I am digging around in every corner to find ways to improve.

[/ QUOTE ]

Post-flop, post-flop, post-flop. Just from pure logic you should be able to see that dredging up another 3% on your VP$IP from the bottom of the playable barrel of hands can't add much to your win rate. The action argument is not true, I get plenty because of how I play after the flop.

[x2ski]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
therefore, I am digging around in every corner to find ways to improve.

[/ QUOTE ]

Post-flop, post-flop, post-flop. Just from pure logic you should be able to see that dredging up another 3% on your VP$IP from the bottom of the playable barrel of hands can't add much to your win rate. The action argument is not true, I get plenty because of how I play after the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Care to elaborate? After a post (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&amp;Board=holdem&amp;Number=1975579&amp;Foru m=,,,,All_Forums,,,,&amp;Words=&amp;Searchpage=2&amp;Limit=25&amp; Main=1975579&amp;Search=true&amp;where=&amp;Name=11847&amp;dateran ge=&amp;newerval=&amp;newertype=&amp;olderval=&amp;oldertype=&amp;body prev=#Post1975579) I made a few weeks ago addressed to those with a winrate of 2.5+BB/100, I discovered that I needed to learn odds inside and out. So I took about 3 days off and studied until I knew how to calculate them back and forth, up and down. I even opened up 12 $3/$6 tables without sitting down and just randomly clicked around until I could instantly calculate the pot odds and determine how many outs I would need to continue in any given hand, factoring in implied odds. 3 weeks later, I'm still not satisfied with the results.

What is good post-flop play? Again, is it laying down AA on the river to a raise/check-raise from a LP-P in a medium-sized pot with a ragged board?

In other words, which is more important, value-betting or good laydowns? Or is there a whole lot more? What am I missing?

[Zetack]

Your sample size is too large. Make a new database with only your last 25k hands in it. Delete your old database. Post your new stats.

Then I will tell you your sample size is too small.

--Zetack

[IndieMatty]

I haven't played 3/6 in a while, but I think you should be 3-betting with 99 against everyone except whatever you guys call moneybags and eagles.

[TimM]

[ QUOTE ]
What is good post-flop play? Again, is it laying down AA on the river to a raise/check-raise from a LP-P in a medium-sized pot with a ragged board?

In other words, which is more important, value-betting or good laydowns? Or is there a whole lot more? What am I missing?

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, I'm far from the best player to answer this, but I would say it is two things. Good hand reading, and then the tactics - knowing the right thing to do once you've made your read correctly.

Look how the guy with QQ misplayed his hand. He bets into a PF 3-bettor with QQ, and an ace and jack on the board, on the flop, turn, and river. I must either have at least a pair of aces, or set of aces, a set of jacks, pocket kings, or a pair like TT or lower that I can't even call once on the flop because there are two overcards and a PF capper. Once I call the flop bet he should know he is screwed.

Then after the hand he shows he doesn't understand what the right play would be even if he had the KK and knew I had QQ. I see a lot of people who don't understand basic stuff. Like when to bet into the PFR and when to checkraise him, based on their position and hand. They do it backwards with the wrong type of hand, and wind up locking in the players they should want to force out.

You probably don't have trouble with these, but they are just a few examples of post-flop tactics, of which value-betting and good laydowns are also a part of.

[x2ski]

[ QUOTE ]
Your sample size is too large. Make a new database with only your last 25k hands in it. Delete your old database. Post your new stats.

Then I will tell you your sample size is too small.

--Zetack

[/ QUOTE ]

Always the comedian, aren't ya? /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[x2ski]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What is good post-flop play? Again, is it laying down AA on the river to a raise/check-raise from a LP-P in a medium-sized pot with a ragged board?

In other words, which is more important, value-betting or good laydowns? Or is there a whole lot more? What am I missing?

[/ QUOTE ]

Look how the guy with QQ misplayed his hand. He bets into a PF 3-bettor with QQ, and an ace and jack on the board, on the flop, turn, and river. I must either have at least a pair of aces, or set of aces, a set of jacks, pocket kings, or a pair like TT or lower that I can't even call once on the flop because there are two overcards and a PF capper. Once I call the flop bet he should know he is screwed.

Then after the hand he shows he doesn't understand what the right play would be even if he had the KK and knew I had QQ. I see a lot of people who don't understand basic stuff. Like when to bet into the PFR and when to checkraise him, based on their position and hand. They do it backwards with the wrong type of hand, and wind up locking in the players they should want to force out.

[/ QUOTE ]

I had to read this like 3 or 4 times, but I think I get what you're saying /images/graemlins/crazy.gif

[Tosh]

Generally you can increase your VP$IP by playing more hands.

[bobbyi]

[ QUOTE ]
What is good post-flop play?

[/ QUOTE ]
Mostly, it is hand reading. It is knowing what range of hands an opponent can hold in a given situation and how likely each one is. And it is knowing how often he will react in a given way to each possible action you can take for each of those hands. Putting those together, you can figure out how to maximize your EV. Just knowing your pot odds is certainly not enough.

[x2ski]

[ QUOTE ]
Generally you can increase your VP$IP by playing more hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks! I think I'll do that!

First constructive post of this thread! /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[party36master]

I'm at 20.53% VPIP, w/11.63% PFR, and 1.58 Post Flop Aggression in my last 25,000 3/6 hands.

I dropped by VPIP by about 1.25% over the past 25,000 hands, and my PFR used to be over 12%.

This has helped improve my results to 2.44 BB/100 over the past 25,000 hands- its 1.48 BB/100 overall for 65,000 hands.

Here are a couple of suggestions:

Think about calling small pairs for 2 bets in MP2 or MP3 when someone raises early, and a couple of people cold-call, and you think the pot will go 5 or 6 handed.

If UTG raises, and UTG+2 and MP1 coldcall, I'm coldcalling 55 from MP3, unless the blinds are super tight. The pot is likely 5-6 handed, and you can call.

Also note that if the flop comes down something like J,7,6 rainbow, you can call the flop because it'll be 13-14 small bets and you've got 3.5 outs.

Think about calling medium suited connectors for 2 bets in MP if there are a couple of coldcallers ahead of you.
I'm calling 2 bets with 89 suited if UTG raises, and there are 2 coldcallers ahead of me. The pot is likely going 5-6 way, and there are many playable hands postflop.

Suppose the flop comes down J, 9, 6, with one of your suit.
Now you've got middle pair, plus runner-runner flush draw, and runner-runner straight draw, although the high end of straight draw is vulnerable to AK UTG. You've got around 8 outs.

Also, not only do you have odds to call the flop, but you've probably got odds to call the turn as well.

Example: UTG bets the flop, one caller, then you call. Everyone else folds.

Now pot is 7.5 BB- Turn is 2 offsuit. Now UTG bets, and the other player folds. Now its 8.5 BB to you, and you have 5 outs, so you can call again.

My point is that you can call medium suited connectors for 2 bets in MP, and get lots of +EV situations postflop.

Also, think about loosening up a lot from the button if there's no raise.
I'm calling with KTo, and with something like 75 suited if its 5 way.

Also, blind steal if the blinds are tight.

I'll also limp with something like A8o in late position if the pot is multiway.

Eventually you get to 20.53% VPIP.....

[Nightwish]

[ QUOTE ]

My point is that you can call medium suited connectors for 2 bets in MP, and get lots of +EV situations postflop.


[/ QUOTE ]
Why not just cap cause then you'll have postflop odds to chase just about any draw? Right?

BTW, the rest of your advice is equally poor.

[x2ski]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

My point is that you can call medium suited connectors for 2 bets in MP, and get lots of +EV situations postflop.


[/ QUOTE ]
Why not just cap cause then you'll have postflop odds to chase just about any draw? Right?

BTW, the rest of your advice is equally poor.

[/ QUOTE ]

I believe that instead of "thinking" the pot will be 5-6 way in his example, he meant to say "knowing" the pot will be 5-6 way, which unfortunately can never be a certainty.

Nevertheless, I sincerely appreciate his attempt to contribute, so give him a break already /images/graemlins/smile.gif

(i've been using these graemlins like crazy lately... never knew they were called graemlins... whatever happened to emoticons? ok, i'm done rambling...


... now)

[Harv72b]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: x2ski is UTG+1 with 8/images/graemlins/club.gif, 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif. MP3 posts a blind of $3.
UTG calls, x2ski calls....

I don't remember the exact table conditions, but this is a situation where I would be raising nearly every time. You have a poster behind you that you want out of the hand, and ideally you would like to end up HU vs. that UTG limper; you definitely don't want to build up the pot odds enough to encourage more limpers behind you.

[/ QUOTE ]

Currently I'm raising 88/99 (sometimes 77) when first in, but if there are one or more limpers before me and I'm in EP/EMP, I just call to encourage limpers behind me. These hands want many or few opponents right? In later position with one limper, I'm raising all day long.

[/ QUOTE ]

These hands do want many or few opponents, but for different reasons, as I'm sure you're aware. Against few (ideally one) opponent, you're going to win often unimproved. Against many opponents, you're going to lose often, but win big when you flop your set.

So, when it gets to you with one limper ahead of you, you have to ask which situation you'd prefer--I'd much rather have the better odds of winning. So you raise to isolate the early limper (a tight player probably has a smaller PP than your 88, anyway), and to discourage other players with overcards from getting involved in the pot. Especially in the hand above, where you have the opportunity to isolate with 2.5 SB's of dead money, should the poster and blinds all fold. If you get a bunch of cold-callers behind you, them's the breaks...but then again, you might still flop your set.

Incidentally, the reverse of this situation is the reason why I will almost always limp small (22-77) pockets from EP, first in or not. If someone raises behind me and isolates, fine--most often they have two big broadway cards and not a higher PP. If no-one raises behind me, better--I'm in the pot with a made hand against X number of limpers. If someone raises behind me but the pot is still multiway, fine--I can call the raise with everyone else, and play for my set (or possibly outplay the PFR postflop to win UI).

It takes a very special set of circumstances to make me fold a pocket pair preflop. And I think that's a good part of why my VPIP is up in the 19 area. FWIW, my BB/100 is well over 2, both on 3/6 and overall.

[TimM]

[ QUOTE ]
Think about calling small pairs for 2 bets in MP2 or MP3 when someone raises early, and a couple of people cold-call, and you think the pot will go 5 or 6 handed.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is basic, but how often does it come up? It's not going to bring his VP$IP up .1%.

[ QUOTE ]
If UTG raises, and UTG+2 and MP1 coldcall, I'm coldcalling 55 from MP3, unless the blinds are super tight. The pot is likely 5-6 handed, and you can call.

Also note that if the flop comes down something like J,7,6 rainbow, you can call the flop because it'll be 13-14 small bets and you've got 3.5 outs.

[/ QUOTE ]

You would consider having the ass end of a backdoor straight using one card as 1.5 outs???

[ QUOTE ]
Think about calling medium suited connectors for 2 bets in MP if there are a couple of coldcallers ahead of you.

I'm calling 2 bets with 89 suited if UTG raises, and there are 2 coldcallers ahead of me. The pot is likely going 5-6 way, and there are many playable hands postflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't like this at all. Your fantasy flop is nice, but most of the time you flop nothing. Also, even when you like the flop, you are going to be facing two bets often, or get trapped for mulitple bets when someone raises after you call.

You want the action to be fairly passive on the flop with these hands, and you aren't going to get that with a PF raiser and 3-4 other players who might have flopped a hand they want to protect.

When you flop a set, on the other hand, this is a great situation to be in. The action you get in these cases alone justifies the cold call, you don't need to look for crazy reasons to stay in when you miss.

[party36master]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

My point is that you can call medium suited connectors for 2 bets in MP, and get lots of +EV situations postflop.


[/ QUOTE ]
Why not just cap cause then you'll have postflop odds to chase just about any draw? Right?

BTW, the rest of your advice is equally poor.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you're the 4th in the pot from MP3, its really not a stretch to assume the pot is 5 or 6 handed.

Well, lets look at my advice:
I advised:
Calling 2 bets w/55 from MP3 when I'm 4th in the pot.
SSHE recommends calling 2 bets w/55 from CO when I'm 5th in the pot. This level of difference doesn't make my advice "poor".

I suggested calling 2 bets w/89 suited in MP3 when I'm 4th in the pot.
SSHE suggets calling 2 bets w/9,10 suited in CO when I'm 4th in the pot. One unit down from one position earlier doesn't make this advice "poor".

I'm trying to answer the OPs question of how you get to higher VPIP. If you're not comfortable playing marginal hands, you're going to stay at lower VPIP.

Also, name one specific postflop suggestion on either my 55 hand or my 89 suited hand that was poor.

On the 55 hand, 2 bets 6 handed preflop plus bet and call to you on flop is 14 small bets. Even if you value the hand at 2.5 outs, if you hit your hand, you'll pick up 1.9 BBs postflop, so this is a clear call. If you ignore your marginal draws, you'll misvalue your hand.

With the 89 suited hand, postflop, you've got odds to call the flop and turn, as long as the board doesn't pair or it doesn't get raised behind you. Middle pair with weak straight and flush draws is playable if it was 6 handed, w/2 bets preflop. And its not even close....

[x2ski]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

My point is that you can call medium suited connectors for 2 bets in MP, and get lots of +EV situations postflop.


[/ QUOTE ]
Why not just cap cause then you'll have postflop odds to chase just about any draw? Right?

BTW, the rest of your advice is equally poor.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you're the 4th in the pot from MP3, its really not a stretch to assume the pot is 5 or 6 handed.

Well, lets look at my advice:
I advised:
Calling 2 bets w/55 from MP3 when I'm 4th in the pot.
SSHE recommends calling 2 bets w/55 from CO when I'm 5th in the pot. This level of difference doesn't make my advice "poor".

I suggested calling 2 bets w/89 suited in MP3 when I'm 4th in the pot.
SSHE suggets calling 2 bets w/9,10 suited in CO when I'm 4th in the pot. One unit down from one position earlier doesn't make this advice "poor".

I'm trying to answer the OPs question of how you get to higher VPIP. If you're not comfortable playing marginal hands, you're going to stay at lower VPIP.

Also, name one specific postflop suggestion on either my 55 hand or my 89 suited hand that was poor.

On the 55 hand, 2 bets 6 handed preflop plus bet and call to you on flop is 14 small bets. Even if you value the hand at 2.5 outs, if you hit your hand, you'll pick up 1.9 BBs postflop, so this is a clear call. If you ignore your marginal draws, you'll misvalue your hand.

With the 89 suited hand, postflop, you've got odds to call the flop and turn, as long as the board doesn't pair or it doesn't get raised behind you. Middle pair with weak straight and flush draws is playable if it was 6 handed, w/2 bets preflop. And its not even close....

[/ QUOTE ]

Good defense... really.

But you weren't this specific in your original post, which is why I assume Nightwish wanted to nip some seemingly generalized strategies in the bud.

I don't know either way, hence the OP, but I also prefer to avoid any arguments (criticisms? yes. arguments? no)

[surfdoc]

I made my way through most of this thread but it is pretty long. A few points that were said need reiterating. The blind structure at this limit makes your VPIP fine. You may lower your win rate if anything by increasing the hands you play so be careful you don't take this too far. I have similar numbers and also have many hands against you. The biggest adjustment I think you can make is game selection. I have been 8 tabling a bit in the middle of the day and my winrate is down significantly during this stretch. The fish come out at night. Period.

[Nightwish]

OK, you wanted some specific comments on why I thought your advice was poor. Let's go through it step by step.

[ QUOTE ]

If UTG raises, and UTG+2 and MP1 coldcall, I'm coldcalling 55 from MP3, unless the blinds are super tight. The pot is likely 5-6 handed, and you can call.


[/ QUOTE ]
You're getting immediate odds of 3.5:1 BB, which means you need to pick up another 4 BB postflop when you hit your set just to make this call breakeven. Factor in the times you lose with your set, and it's not clear whether this call is +EV. Another 1 or 2 players would likely make it +EV, but in any case, you need to be a damn good postflop player if you're going to be relying so much on implied odds. Let's see if you are that kind of player...

[ QUOTE ]

Also note that if the flop comes down something like J,7,6 rainbow, you can call the flop because it'll be 13-14 small bets and you've got 3.5 outs.


[/ QUOTE ]
I take it you're assuming that 5 people put in 2 SB each preflop, and now there's a bet and 3 or 4 calls to you? Even if the situation is as improbably spectacular as you present it, how did you get those 3.5 outs??? You have 2 outs to a bottom set and some questionable runner-runner outs to a 1-card bottom straight. So bottom set draw and runner-runner bottom straight draw somehow computes to 3.5 outs? If you really believe this, you have no business calling 2 bets preflop with 55.

[ QUOTE ]

Think about calling medium suited connectors for 2 bets in MP if there are a couple of coldcallers ahead of you.
I'm calling 2 bets with 89 suited if UTG raises, and there are 2 coldcallers ahead of me. The pot is likely going 5-6 way, and there are many playable hands postflop.


[/ QUOTE ]
Here you're assuming that there will be callers behind you and that nobody will 3-bet. Even then, 98s has pretty poor implied odds when you have to call 2 cold with questionable position.

[ QUOTE ]

Suppose the flop comes down J, 9, 6, with one of your suit.
Now you've got middle pair, plus runner-runner flush draw, and runner-runner straight draw, although the high end of straight draw is vulnerable to AK UTG. You've got around 8 outs.
Also, not only do you have odds to call the flop, but you've probably got odds to call the turn as well.


[/ QUOTE ]
So you inflated the pot preflop by making a bad call and now you're going to compound the mistake by chasing questionable runner-runners? And what are you going to do on the river if you still miss? Call? The pot is now so big that you can't fold, but it's only because you've been chasing bad money with bad money all along.

[ QUOTE ]
This has helped improve my results to 2.44 BB/100 over the past 25,000 hands- its 1.48 BB/100 overall for 65,000 hands.


[/ QUOTE ]
1.48 BB/100 is a statistic I can believe for this style of play, and even that suggests you've been running good.

[Harv72b]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm trying to answer the OPs question of how you get to higher VPIP. If you're not comfortable playing marginal hands, you're going to stay at lower VPIP.

[/ QUOTE ]

Cold-calling more often is not the answer. Limping small pockets up front, more questionable hands in LP, and being the raiser is.

By the way, you must have a different edition of SSH than I do. My copy draws the LP cold-calling line at any two suited ten or higher. And that's for loose (6-8 to the flop) games, which you will almost never find above the micro limits online.

[x2ski]

[ QUOTE ]
I have been 8 tabling a bit in the middle of the day and my winrate is down significantly during this stretch. The fish come out at night. Period.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm considering changing my schedule from 2pm CST-10:30pmCST to 6pmCST-2:30amCST, but the wife would kill me lol. Something to take into consideration though. Doesn't that D'Agostino (or whatever) kid play wierd ass hours? So did/does davidross, which may be an example to follow.

I'll buy her presents and such.

[x2ski]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This has helped improve my results to 2.44 BB/100 over the past 25,000 hands- its 1.48 BB/100 overall for 65,000 hands.


[/ QUOTE ]
1.48 BB/100 is a statistic I can believe for this style of play, and even that suggests you've been running good.

[/ QUOTE ]

brutal

[party36master]

[ QUOTE ]
OK, you wanted some specific comments on why I thought your advice was poor. Let's go through it step by step.

[ QUOTE ]

If UTG raises, and UTG+2 and MP1 coldcall, I'm coldcalling 55 from MP3, unless the blinds are super tight. The pot is likely 5-6 handed, and you can call.

You're getting immediate odds of 3.5:1 BB, which means you need to pick up another 4 BB postflop when you hit your set just to make this call breakeven. Factor in the times you lose with your set, and it's not clear whether this call is +EV. Another 1 or 2 players would likely make it +EV, but in any case, you need to be a damn good postflop player if you're going to be relying so much on implied odds. Let's see if you are that kind of player...


[/ QUOTE ]


Ok, we agree here. I expected the 1-2 extra players, which you agree makes it +EV.



[ QUOTE ]

Also note that if the flop comes down something like J,7,6 rainbow, you can call the flop because it'll be 13-14 small bets and you've got 3.5 outs.

I take it you're assuming that 5 people put in 2 SB each preflop, and now there's a bet and 3 or 4 calls to you? Even if the situation is as improbably spectacular as you present it, how did you get those 3.5 outs??? You have 2 outs to a bottom set and some questionable runner-runner outs to a 1-card bottom straight. So bottom set draw and runner-runner bottom straight draw somehow computes to 3.5 outs? If you really believe this, you have no business calling 2 bets preflop with 55.


[/ QUOTE ]


I assumed 6 preflop, at 2 bets each. Bet into you on the flop, so that's 13 SB.

You'll agree that 55 has at least 2 outs. I also have 7,6,5, which is a no gap runner runner straight draw.
A no gap runner runner straight draw is usually worth about the same as a backdoor flush draw, which is considered about 1.5 outs.

Lets say you don't believe me that a backdoor straight draw is 1.5 outs. Lets say you want to call it anything more than 1/2 out, how about 0.6 outs.

Well, you still have odds to call.
Its 13 SB to you. Lets assume if you hit your set on the turn, you are going to raise, and he is going to call the turn bet, and fold on the river.
That's two additional BB, which is 4 additional SB.

So you're winning 17 SB, which is the 17.0 SB you need if you value the hand at 2.6 outs.



[ QUOTE ]

Think about calling medium suited connectors for 2 bets in MP if there are a couple of coldcallers ahead of you.
I'm calling 2 bets with 89 suited if UTG raises, and there are 2 coldcallers ahead of me. The pot is likely going 5-6 way, and there are many playable hands postflop.


[/ QUOTE ]
Here you're assuming that there will be callers behind you and that nobody will 3-bet. Even then, 98s has pretty poor implied odds when you have to call 2 cold with questionable position.

[ QUOTE ]

Suppose the flop comes down J, 9, 6, with one of your suit.
Now you've got middle pair, plus runner-runner flush draw, and runner-runner straight draw, although the high end of straight draw is vulnerable to AK UTG. You've got around 8 outs.
Also, not only do you have odds to call the flop, but you've probably got odds to call the turn as well.

So you inflated the pot preflop by making a bad call and now you're going to compound the mistake by chasing questionable runner-runners? And what are you going to do on the river if you still miss? Call? The pot is now so big that you can't fold, but it's only because you've been chasing bad money with bad money all along.



[/ QUOTE ]

I'm probably not going to call the river.

Lets assume you know UTG has AA. You'll agree that middle pair is 5 outs. Well, to agree that my hand is worth 8 outs, you'll have to agree that runner runner flush draw is 1.5 outs, and runner runner straight draw is 1.5 outs. So now I have an 8 out hand.

If I have an 8 out hand, I clearly have odds to call the flop. Now if a rag hits on the flop that doesn't pair the board, I have a 5 out hand. So I need 8.2 BB to call, ignoring implied odds. If 6 people paid 2 bets preflop to call, and 3 people took the flop, and the turn is a bet to you, you're there. So you have to call.


[ QUOTE ]
This has helped improve my results to 2.44 BB/100 over the past 25,000 hands- its 1.48 BB/100 overall for 65,000 hands.


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1.48 BB/100 is a statistic I can believe for this style of play, and even that suggests you've been running good.

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I would suggest that perhaps you should attempt to understand the value of weak draws to improve your game.

[party36master]

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I don't know either way, hence the OP, but I also prefer to avoid any arguments (criticisms? yes. arguments? no)

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Well, based upon the response, its unavoidable at this point....

[Nightwish]

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OK, you wanted some specific comments on why I thought your advice was poor. Let's go through it step by step.

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If UTG raises, and UTG+2 and MP1 coldcall, I'm coldcalling 55 from MP3, unless the blinds are super tight. The pot is likely 5-6 handed, and you can call.

You're getting immediate odds of 3.5:1 BB, which means you need to pick up another 4 BB postflop when you hit your set just to make this call breakeven. Factor in the times you lose with your set, and it's not clear whether this call is +EV. Another 1 or 2 players would likely make it +EV, but in any case, you need to be a damn good postflop player if you're going to be relying so much on implied odds. Let's see if you are that kind of player...


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Ok, we agree here. I expected the 1-2 extra players, which you agree makes it +EV.



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Also note that if the flop comes down something like J,7,6 rainbow, you can call the flop because it'll be 13-14 small bets and you've got 3.5 outs.

I take it you're assuming that 5 people put in 2 SB each preflop, and now there's a bet and 3 or 4 calls to you? Even if the situation is as improbably spectacular as you present it, how did you get those 3.5 outs??? You have 2 outs to a bottom set and some questionable runner-runner outs to a 1-card bottom straight. So bottom set draw and runner-runner bottom straight draw somehow computes to 3.5 outs? If you really believe this, you have no business calling 2 bets preflop with 55.


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I assumed 6 preflop, at 2 bets each. Bet into you on the flop, so that's 13 SB.

You'll agree that 55 has at least 2 outs. I also have 7,6,5, which is a no gap runner runner straight draw.
A no gap runner runner straight draw is usually worth about the same as a backdoor flush draw, which is considered about 1.5 outs.

Lets say you don't believe me that a backdoor straight draw is 1.5 outs. Lets say you want to call it anything more than 1/2 out, how about 0.6 outs.

Well, you still have odds to call.
Its 13 SB to you. Lets assume if you hit your set on the turn, you are going to raise, and he is going to call the turn bet, and fold on the river.
That's two additional BB, which is 4 additional SB.

So you're winning 17 SB, which is the 17.0 SB you need if you value the hand at 2.6 outs.



[ QUOTE ]

Think about calling medium suited connectors for 2 bets in MP if there are a couple of coldcallers ahead of you.
I'm calling 2 bets with 89 suited if UTG raises, and there are 2 coldcallers ahead of me. The pot is likely going 5-6 way, and there are many playable hands postflop.


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Here you're assuming that there will be callers behind you and that nobody will 3-bet. Even then, 98s has pretty poor implied odds when you have to call 2 cold with questionable position.

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Suppose the flop comes down J, 9, 6, with one of your suit.
Now you've got middle pair, plus runner-runner flush draw, and runner-runner straight draw, although the high end of straight draw is vulnerable to AK UTG. You've got around 8 outs.
Also, not only do you have odds to call the flop, but you've probably got odds to call the turn as well.

So you inflated the pot preflop by making a bad call and now you're going to compound the mistake by chasing questionable runner-runners? And what are you going to do on the river if you still miss? Call? The pot is now so big that you can't fold, but it's only because you've been chasing bad money with bad money all along.



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I'm probably not going to call the river.

Lets assume you know UTG has AA. You'll agree that middle pair is 5 outs. Well, to agree that my hand is worth 8 outs, you'll have to agree that runner runner flush draw is 1.5 outs, and runner runner straight draw is 1.5 outs. So now I have an 8 out hand.

If I have an 8 out hand, I clearly have odds to call the flop. Now if a rag hits on the flop that doesn't pair the board, I have a 5 out hand. So I need 8.2 BB to call, ignoring implied odds. If 6 people paid 2 bets preflop to call, and 3 people took the flop, and the turn is a bet to you, you're there. So you have to call.


[ QUOTE ]
This has helped improve my results to 2.44 BB/100 over the past 25,000 hands- its 1.48 BB/100 overall for 65,000 hands.


[/ QUOTE ]
1.48 BB/100 is a statistic I can believe for this style of play, and even that suggests you've been running good.

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I would suggest that perhaps you should attempt to understand the value of weak draws to improve your game.

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You consider that a response to everything I posted above? Come on, you can at least start by trying to explain where you got the 3.5 outs.

[party36master]

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You consider that a response to everything I posted above? Come on, you can at least start by trying to explain where you got the 3.5 outs.

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If you are joking, that's actually funny, good one.

If you were skimming the post, here were my responses in the post above-

55:

Ok, we agree here. I expected the 1-2 extra players, which you agree makes it +EV.




I assumed 6 preflop, at 2 bets each. Bet into you on the flop, so that's 13 SB.

You'll agree that 55 has at least 2 outs. I also have 7,6,5, which is a no gap runner runner straight draw.
A no gap runner runner straight draw is usually worth about the same as a backdoor flush draw, which is considered about 1.5 outs.

Lets say you don't believe me that a backdoor straight draw is 1.5 outs. Lets say you want to call it anything more than 1/2 out, how about 0.6 outs.

Well, you still have odds to call.
Its 13 SB to you. Lets assume if you hit your set on the turn, you are going to raise, and he is going to call the turn bet, and fold on the river.
That's two additional BB, which is 4 additional SB.

So you're winning 17 SB, which is the 17.0 SB you need if you value the hand at 2.6 outs.



89s:

I'm probably not going to call the river.

Lets assume you know UTG has AA. You'll agree that middle pair is 5 outs. Well, to agree that my hand is worth 8 outs, you'll have to agree that runner runner flush draw is 1.5 outs, and runner runner straight draw is 1.5 outs. So now I have an 8 out hand.

If I have an 8 out hand, I clearly have odds to call the flop. Now if a rag hits on the flop that doesn't pair the board, I have a 5 out hand. So I need 8.2 BB to call, ignoring implied odds. If 6 people paid 2 bets preflop to call, and 3 people took the flop, and the turn is a bet to you, you're there. So you have to call.

the obnoxious comment on my results:

I would suggest that perhaps you should attempt to understand the value of weak draws to improve your game.

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[flair1239]

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I have been 8 tabling a bit in the middle of the day and my winrate is down significantly during this stretch. The fish come out at night. Period.

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I'm considering changing my schedule from 2pm CST-10:30pmCST to 6pmCST-2:30amCST, but the wife would kill me lol. Something to take into consideration though. Doesn't that D'Agostino (or whatever) kid play wierd ass hours? So did/does davidross, which may be an example to follow.

I'll buy her presents and such.

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This alone would increas your winrate. I don';t think you need to do it everyday though. If it would be a problem with your wife, then just choose (2)out of three days (Thursday, Friday, Saturday). I would imagine just by playing nights on a couple of those days would increase your WR.

[TimM]

My objections are:

First hand:

Your set outs are slightly tainted since it puts 567 on the board, and sets up one card straight redraws on the river. Your straight outs, the 8 and especially 9 if the 8 comes, are tainted too. You added extra callers to make your point. You said 6, but it could just as easily be only the three of you. Of course even the tightest BB will be looking at the 7-1 odds, so the most likely is 4 to the flop, maybe 5. 6 is stretching.

Second hand:

You actually have more equity vs AA than your 8 outs estimate. But this flop is highly favorable and doesnt come up often. 2/3 of the time you will not flop a pair. A lot of the time you will not have straight outs. A lot of the time it will not be rainbow, and when it isn't, 3/4 of the time the suits will not be the ones you hold, and this will weaken whatever other piece of the flop you may have hit. You will be paying two bets to see the flop and folding most of the time.

When the flop is good for you, you will often have to pay dearly to chase. The PFR will bet out, a guy with top pair raises, and now what? Or, the PFR bets, you call, top pair behind you raises, PFR 3-bets, etc. A lot of these guys at 3/6 have read SSH too, or mimic those who have, and they know the part about protecting their hand against hands like yours. If you knew the game were passive, like the PFR bets and they all just call, it's not that bad. But this is not how party 3/6 plays lately.

You might say you have odds to call in these cases, but just because you have odds to call something doesn't prove it was correct to get in that situation in the first place.

[pokerjunky]

It is true that there are more fish at night, usually after six is the best time to play. I, however, can't sit at the computer for eight hours straight nor do I want to stay up past midnight, so I break my schedule up into two sessions. 12:00 - 4:00 PM., and 8:00 - midnight. Although this doesn't give me the greatest expectation as far as the fish go, it fits nicely into my schedule plus gives me a chance to untilt after a suckout filled session.

[Zetack]

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Your sample size is too large. Make a new database with only your last 25k hands in it. Delete your old database. Post your new stats.

Then I will tell you your sample size is too small.

--Zetack

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Always the comedian, aren't ya? /images/graemlins/smile.gif

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Mostly I just amuse myself, but hey, at least I'm amused...


--Zetack

[zombies kill]

a major part of that low 3/6 vpip is the small blind being only 1/3 of the BB. i used to wonder the same thing... why i couldnt get it up to around... say... 17 or 18.... and the best answer i can come up with is that. all my stats from games where the sb is actually half the bb are right where i "think" they should be (17/18%). it makes a much bigger difference than most people anticipate.

[Zetack]

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a major part of that low 3/6 vpip is the small blind being only 1/3 of the BB. i used to wonder the same thing... why i couldnt get it up to around... say... 17 or 18.... and the best answer i can come up with is that. all my stats from games where the sb is actually half the bb are right where i "think" they should be (17/18%). it makes a much bigger difference than most people anticipate.

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That actually seems reasonable. Instead of a percentage lets think of our vpip in terms of hands per hundred. 18 percent would be vpip on 18 out of a hundred hands.

In a ten handed game you will be in the Sb 10 times (probably a bit more since the game is not constantly ten handed). Say you see the flop 75 percent of the time in a Half big blind structure. That's 7.5 times per hundred. Say in a 1/3 structure you see the flop 35 percent of the time. That's 3.5 times per hundrer of 4 less. That's enough to bump an 18 percent VPIP down to 14 percent without anything else changing.

Ok I suck at math so I cold be wrong but it sounds right to me.

So if those sb numbers look like your own, then if your VPIP dropped from say 18 percent at 2/4 to say 15.5 percent at 3.6 then you have actually loosened up.

And that's actually understating the effect since generally you will be in the sb more than 10 times per hundred.

--Zetack

[Octopus]

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Say you see the flop 75 percent of the time in a Half big blind structure. ... Say in a 1/3 structure you see the flop 35 percent of the time.

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These numbers are seriously too high, even ignoring the fact that in x2ski's games it is raised pre-flop the majority of the time. I'd guess his numbers are closer to 30% and 20%. That said, I agree: the blind structure is has a significant impact on VP$IP; on the order of 1%.