Starting Hands Strength Charts

[aceh]

I made a little diagram of the starting hands expected strength on the flop:

Hands Strength (http://www.haimana.com/poker/2005/04/starting-hands.html)

I know it is not really all that useful but still gives you an idea.

(Calculation of Hand Rank is explained here (http://www.haimana.com/poker/2005/04/hand-rank-strength.html) )

[ptmusic]

Interesting... how did you figure out the math?

Also, silly question I suppose: why is 72o ranked higher than 73o?

-ptmusic

[Ianco15]

This chart may be useful fo all in preflop situations in tourneys. In limit ring games I definitely disagree with this chart. AKs is a much more powerful hand than 66 in a full limit game.

[Fraser]

That's pretty badass IMO.

So you used/created a simulator that figures the average rank of your hand (in terms of nuts) after the flop based on your preflop holding?

[aceh]

The reason they might be slightly off is because I used a limited number of random flops (2000) to see what the hand rank is overall. Also I should make it for all the way to the river, then it will be useful for all-ins. (which is why 72 is not at the bottom, 23 would beat 72 by the river most likely)

[aceh]

Oh, and another thing it would be interesting to see the hand rank if we exclude say lower 50%. or only against top 10% of hands (assuming rarely one will go all in with 27)

[TStoneMBD]

no offense, but your chart is very inaccurate.

pokerroom.com has a ev chart of every starting hand.

thats much more accurate.

2000 hands is not enough.

[pzhon]

Hold'em is a 7 card game. Your chart assumes it is a 5 card game.

Your method ignores the strength of the hands' draws on the flop. You often prefer to have a hand that is a strong draw but a weak made hand over something that is just a slightly stronger made hand with no draw. For example, on a flop of Q 8 5, you usually prefer to have 65 rather than 66, and you might prefer 76 over either.

[aceh]

That's nice that they provide real money tables information like that. EV and the Hand Rank(HR) I'm displaying are completely different things though. I was just curious where my hands stand on flop that's all. If I did 2 million instead of 2000 the charts weren't going to change much.
This is 2000 for each hand.

[aceh]

Correct I will make one that shows results all the way to the river.

[grimel]

There are roughly 1,765,234 hand rank charts. It's a near unanimous belief that 72o is the worst starting hand in hold 'em. The previously mentioned 1,765,234 charts are very close (changes based on limit vs no limit).

None of the charts are even close to yours.

[eastbay]

[ QUOTE ]
23 would beat 72 by the river most likely

[/ QUOTE ]

You're smoking crack. 72o is 65/35 over 32o.

eastbay

[OrangeKing]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
23 would beat 72 by the river most likely

[/ QUOTE ]

You're smoking crack. 72o is 65/35 over 32o.

eastbay

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly, and this is one of the big misconceptions people have about hold 'em (though it's not a very important fact to know, really). 72o is the weakest multiway hand, but it's a favorite over more than a few hands heads up. 23o is the worst hand heads up, for obvious reasons.

[aceh]

Care to explain what's different? I'm getting hammered here, I'd like to hear constructive criticism.

[grimel]

Buy "Hold 'em Poker" by David Sklansky. He ranked the hands and gives a detailed explaination of the how and why. "Hold 'em for Advanced Players" has a slightly different version (changed due to IIRC, the double blind structure). "The Complete Book on Hold'em Poker" by Gary Carson has similar rankings (changed slightly to fit Carson's idea of ideal poker play).

2000k simulations isn't even close. Claiming 32o will likely beat 72o heads up by the river? 32o MUST improve to win the hand while 72o has 32o dominated - any improvement by 72o just increases the domination.

Which is more likely the 23o straight or 23o not improving? If the 23o improves by making a pair, trips, or quad 2's at BEST it ties 72o. The only way to improve for a win is via the 3, 4 flush board, or straight. Drawing to the straight isn't enough to overcome the dead 2.

Make it a multiway pot and the "ave" winning hand increase to the point the straight becomes more valuable than the dead 2.

[pzhon]

I think it is valuable to have some index of a hand's strength on the flop. I think there should be something about the hand's drawing power, e.g., the average number of outs against the best hand that can be made with one card, usually TPNK.

Another problem with this index is that it pays too much attention to how the hands stand up against garbage hands rather than hands that will bet or raise. It's very costly to have the second nuts when someone has the nuts, since the pot will be quite large. However, that has only a tiny effect on the hand ranking. Q-high versus 8-high produces a larger difference of perhaps hundreds of ranks, though the pot is likely to be very small.

Overall, I think your experiments are a good idea, and I hope you continue to share your results.

[blumpkin22]

[ QUOTE ]
The reason they might be slightly off is because I used a limited number of random flops (2000) to see what the hand rank is overall. Also I should make it for all the way to the river, then it will be useful for all-ins. (which is why 72 is not at the bottom, 23 would beat 72 by the river most likely)

[/ QUOTE ]

No, heads up, 72o beats 23o.

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=891818
pokenum -h 7s 2d - 2h 3c
Holdem Hi: 1712304 enumerated boards
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
7s 2d 956677 55.87 444768 25.97 310859 18.15 0.649
3c 2h 444768 25.97 956677 55.87 310859 18.15 0.351