Another Hilger example concerning a controversial slowplay.

[A_C_Slater]

Limit is $.50/1


You are in the BB with 7 /images/graemlins/spade.gif 5 /images/graemlins/spade.gif and get a free play with five other callers. The flop is 7 /images/graemlins/heart.gif 7 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 5 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif. The SB checks and there is $3 in the pot.

[BigSlickBengal]

Honestly i would check or make a small bet and pray someone picks up the diamond flush on the turn

[Firefly]

The answer is bet. Bet it and they will call...Diamond draws...overcards, small PP's...they are all calling, so just bet it...

[grjr]

I bet out and hope to get raised. If it's raised to my left and others have sucked along I'll call the raise and c/r the turn. If it's raised to my right I'll go ahead and 3 bet because the guys that have already called 1 bet probably aren't gonna fold for two more. Then bet out on the turn and hope to get raised again.

[jaxUp]

Bet it and pray for a diamond on the turn.

[KaiShin]

Easy bet.

[tiltaholic]

[ QUOTE ]
and get a free play

[/ QUOTE ]

this phrase really bothers me for some reason. um, it's not free, dammit.

and when people fold 75 preflop, and the flop is 775 and they say "i folded THE full house". i want to say, "no, you folded A full house, dammit". that REALLY bothers me.

then again, the whole/hole, to/too, your/you're thing really bothers me also. i have issues.

anyway. why worry about this situation? seriously. to prove the book wrong? to extract a couple more bets in the future when you happen to flop a full house? how often will that happen.

if you're at a table where they call. bet. and thats all microlimit tables. if you're at a table where they will fold. change tables. or bet, watch them fold, and then change tables. or don't change tables, and then the next time you flop a boat, check, but by then you'll likely be at a table where they would call and you're losing money by not betting.

often we feel we should make the most money off our monster hands. that just isn't how it works and trying to squeeze a little more moeny from hands like this is not the optimal way to maximize winrate.

[A_C_Slater]

Obviously. My intent is to initiate an unwarranted and malicious attack upon Hilger just for the sake of being malevolent.

[zuluking]

[ QUOTE ]
Easy bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

[tiltaholic]

well, i say bet the flop.

in your opinion, what do you think the correct play is and why?

[toss]

Slowplaying is correct in a select few situations. This ain't one of 'em.

[jrz1972]

The possible flush draw makes me probably bet this, but I think its a closer decision than many people in this thread are making it out to be. I think a very strong case can be made for slowplaying:

1. The pot is small.

2. Most or maybe all of your opponents completely whiffed on this horrible flop. There are not many ways for this flop to have hit anybody.

3. An overcard or a diamond or even a straight card could give your opponent a 2nd best hand or a wildly unprofitable draw.

Actually, when I say all that out loud, I'm questioning whether I was right to say I would bet this. The only reason for betting is that some (but not all) people at this level call with anything and everything, but every other dimension of this hand suggests a slowplay.

[string4]

To me, the fact that it's .50/1 table is the most compelling reason to bet, since on most tables at this limit i've seen you have either:

a great chance of being called if you bet, or,
a great chance of it being checked all round if you don't bet

Biggest reason i'd bet out is that if it did check all round when i'm trying to be tricky usually brings on such a total feeling of pure stupid I wouldn't wanna risk it.

[Shillx]

Who cares how you play this hand. You will flop 775 or 557 with this hand about 1 time in 1100. Work on situations that come up all the time as you could check/fold the flop here and it would hardly change your monthly bottom line.

Brad

[grjr]

[ QUOTE ]
Actually, when I say all that out loud, I'm questioning whether I was right to say I would bet this. The only reason for betting is that some (but not all) people at this level call with anything and everything, but every other dimension of this hand suggests a slowplay.


[/ QUOTE ]
I'm gonna pull some numbers out of my butt so the math guys can make fun of me. With 5 other callers I think it's about 40% that someone has a 7 or 5, 50% that someone has 2 diamonds, 50% that someone has a pair, 40% that someone has the A /images/graemlins/diamond.gif, and 30% that someone flopped an OESD. That's a lot of potential raisers or callers. Remember this is .50/1 where people call with anything.

I have to bet this every time.

[grjr]

[ QUOTE ]
Who cares how you play this hand. You will flop 775 or 557 with this hand about 1 time in 1100. Work on situations that come up all the time as you could check/fold the flop here and it would hardly change your monthly bottom line.

Brad

[/ QUOTE ]

Does that mean my folding a royal flush on the flop is not that big of a leak either?

[KaiShin]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Who cares how you play this hand. You will flop 775 or 557 with this hand about 1 time in 1100. Work on situations that come up all the time as you could check/fold the flop here and it would hardly change your monthly bottom line.

Brad

[/ QUOTE ]

Does that mean my folding a royal flush on the flop is not that big of a leak either?

[/ QUOTE ]
Nope.

How often will you flop a royal flush?

[brazilio]

Did you just pick that example directly from reading one of his archived posts or what? Leaks are determined by relative cost and frequency of occurrence.

[grjr]

[ QUOTE ]
Did you just pick that example directly from reading one of his archived posts or what? Leaks are determined by relative cost and frequency of occurrence.

[/ QUOTE ]

That was a joke. I was thinking it was an example given in SSHE so EVERYBODY here would get it. Maybe it was in Carson's book though. /images/graemlins/blush.gif

[Wetdog]

[ QUOTE ]
How often will you flop a royal flush?

[/ QUOTE ]

Twice, once in November (won $1.60) and once in February (won $19.55).

[GrunchCan]

Over something like 50k hands, I have yet to get a royal. I have come spooky close several times in the last few 1000 hands, but never hit it.

[grjr]

[ QUOTE ]
Over something like 50k hands, I have yet to get a royal. I have come spooky close several times in the last few 1000 hands, but never hit it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've had 3 in six months. The last two were a month and a half ago on back to back nights at TigerGaming. Both were spades and both rivers had been 3-bet by the time it got to me. /images/graemlins/crazy.gif

[turaho]

[ QUOTE ]
That was a joke. I was thinking it was an example given in SSHE so EVERYBODY here would get it. Maybe it was in Carson's book though. /images/graemlins/blush.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

You're right, the folding-a-royal-flush leak is from SSHE. I got it. /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Anyway, there is a fundamental lesson to be learned from this example, even if it doesn't come up that often. And that's when you flop a strong hand in an unraised pot, you want some money going in on every street. So don't check it and hope someone else will do your dirty work. BET IT.

[dvashun]

I'm going to go against the grain on this and say slowplay it. There are several people in this hand, there are two draws, and the pot is tiny at this point in the hand. If you're lucky a card hits the turn that improves at least two hands and now this can make a decent pot. If you are really lucky a couple of players will try to bluff with their overcards and build this for you. This is ideal slowplay conditions unlike what toss said.
Then again I'm a newbie and he's a vet and this is just my take and my line. If it checks around my bad and I'll lead the turn.

[jrz1972]

[ QUOTE ]
Then again I'm a newbie and he's a vet and this is just my take and my line.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hilger's a vet too. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[ne14poker]

I said check. I gotta believe that one of these people, especially the LTA, will bet out behind me. Everyone will naturally call. I just think that they are more likely to call a late bet than one from the BB. I'd bet the turn.

I can't quote chapter and verse, but I believe I read that Hilger says to bet out large pots and slow play small ones. Duh, but I'm not sure I'd do it when I thought I could get someone to lead out behind me.