5 handed with calling stations

[Hammuh]

This happened to me last night. There was a calling station ("CS") on my left. CS would only raise with a monster, and would often call down with nut no pair or worse. In both hands I raised with KQo UTG and CS cold called. Both hands were heads up. Both hands had a K on the flop. In hand 1 CS called to the river. In Hand 2 CS raised the river. Hand 1 CS had AK, Hand 2 CS had KK.

Later in the night I got AA utg, raised, CS called, headsup.

Flop Q Q 3 (don't remember suits). I bet, CS called.

Turn 7 [Q Q 3]. I bet, CS called.

River 5 [Q Q 3 7]. If CS has the Q here, he'll call or raise. If CS has a 3, 5, 7, or AK, he'll call.

I checked the river, my hand was good, I have no idea what CS had. Should I have bet? Please help me analyze how to approach this type of player based on the data I gave.

Thanks!

[Andy B]

There are a lot more ways that opponent can have a 7, 5, or 3, or AK, than ways he can have a Q, so you have a value bet. He can also have a pocket pair.

Against this guy, value bet more, but don't bluff or semi-bluff much.

[CreamPuff]

In theory vs. calling stations, you
should raise less (preflop) and call more and
call with a wider range of hands.

So if your normal UTG raising standards are raise KQ, fold KJ, you should probably just call with KJ,KQ (maybe KT), AT-AJ.

Your basically manipulating the pot size smaller
to make them make more mistakes later in the hand.
(You give up a little preflop equity). You still raise
your better hands.

"Should I have bet?"
I like your check vs. this guy based on the way he played
his previous hands. There are worse hands he will
still bet anyways, and you may induce a pure bluff.

[Hammuh]

Bu-duh, the answer was in my description, I just needed some help in seeing it. /forums/images/icons/tongue.gif

[Hammuh]

I often raise KJo and KTo UTG in shorthanded games. Is this a leak?

[CreamPuff]

In a 4 handed game, they are raising hands.
5 handed is debateable.
I would fold them unless the 2 players on my left
respect your raise.

I find that the usual mentality of shorthanded
players is to call more than they would in a
ring game were you 3 off the button (same position as
UTG in a 5 handed game), so raising can get you into trouble.

Concentrate on playing hands in position. For example,
I would much rather raise a calling station with KT when
I was on the button after they limped.


Maybe Ikke or Zee could give you a better answer.
Both are better shorthanded players than me.

[CreamPuff]

Let me elaborate a little more.

If you are in a game with calling stations don't
raise those hands UTG (KJ,KT). Maybe just call.

If you are in a normal game, you may want to mix
up your play.
If you have been raising, you can probably fold these
hands.
If you have been playing tight, they are worth raising
if your opp's are paying attention.

With a tight image you can probably pick up the blinds
or the flop 40-50% of the time.
With a loose-aggressive image, maybe as less as 10-20%,
and you may get reraised by a hand like A6s.

Just my opinion.

[Ikke]

First, if you can get a seat change go for it. I just hate calling stations on your left. Ideal situation would be a tighty
on your left and a calling station on your right. That would give you last position a lot of the times, plus you have
position on the weak player.

IMO you have a clear bet on the river. These kind of players don't bluff often (so no real value in inducing a bluff), will
often call with a lot of hands, and if he has a Q he will bet anyways (unless he's ultra ultra passive). So no reason in checking here; if he has the Q too bad.

Regards

[Ikke]

Thanks for the compliment, but you shouldnt put me in one group with Ray Zee.
He's far more experienced, and is probably considered as one of the best shorthanded players.
I'm still here to learn.

About raising vs limping, there are a few other things to think about. First, as I said in my first
reply to Hammuh, you don't want the calling station on your left; you want him on your right
to isolate and have position.
Also consider what for effect a raise will have on your other opponents. If they are (very) tight
and will often fold, regardless whether CS coldcalls or not, then a raise could show great value,
because you still isolate CS in a way with likely the best hand. If the normal thing occurs and a
raise (thus bigger pot with CS calling) will induce more calls, than a raise loses most of it's value,
and you indeed should limp more.

In a normal, reasonably tight 5 handed game, I would both raise KJ and KT UTG, but KT is about
the worst hand I would raise. I think you give up too much by folding KJ, because a lot of players
will call with weaker kings and jacks. I would raise AT and AJ no matter what. Good aces are
strong hands shorthanded.

"For example,
I would much rather raise a calling station with KT when
I was on the button after they limped."

I totally agree with that, and that's why I can't stress enough that you want the
CS on your right.

Regards

[Hammuh]

[CreamPuff]

"IMO you have a clear bet on the river. These kind of players don't bluff often (so no real value in inducing a bluff)"

The reason I think checking the river is the better play,
is because I was under the impression this calling
station liked to wait to the river to spring a raise
(which many like to do by the way).

If this player has any pair, a bet should go into the
pot anyway (by them, after you check).

If this player has nothing, they won't call anyways.
If this player has 3 Q's, your going to regret betting.
And the probabilty that they will call with A high,
is diminished since you hold 2 A's in your hand.

I also think it's the better play against aggressive
players for the reasons above plus the chance they
will bluff (Check raising is a viable option).

[hutz]

I agree with Andy and Ikke here. It is far more statistically likely for the guy to have a worse calling hand than a hand that will win. I think it's a pretty clear value bet in the situation the mighty Hammuh described.

[Ikke]

Hammuh wrote in his initial post: "CS would only raise with a monster, and would often call down with nut no pair or worse. "

If you take this as a premise, then, IMO, follows from the premise that you have to value bet more and bluff less (as Andy stated).

You wrote: "
The reason I think checking the river is the better play,
is because I was under the impression this calling
station liked to wait to the river to spring a raise"

My experience differs from this. IMO calling stations play very passively and almost never bluff or play "tricky" (waiting till the river with the nuts for instance).

"If this player has nothing, they won't call anyways."

Again, see Hammuh's description of the player. Yesterday I played against virtually the same player, and I value bet a good bare aces a lot, and he always paid off with worse. Also, he raised me on the turn while I had top pair and I could safely lay down. Believe me, these players exist.

"And the probabilty that they will call with A high,
is diminished since you hold 2 A's in your hand."

True, but there are way more hands he would call with.

BTW...always like these discussions. Keep 'm coming!

Regards