The Men from the Boys

[Messy_Jesse]

Ok... So my question is: "What separates the men from the boys?" What separates the solid SNG players from the Gigabets? What is the difference between a 40% ITM $33er from a 40% ITM $215er? Is it postflop play? Is it adjustments made? The ability to avoid going on tilt? The ability to grind it out? Is it being able to accurately place your opponent on a hand? What is it? Thats the first question.

Question number 2:How can solid lower limit players get there? Does it simply take thousands of games worth of experience? Should they read every book? Memorize EV charts? Study hand histories?

Anyways, I'd like to hear some thoughts on this. Maybe this topic has already been beat to death on this forum, but I'd just like some input and clarification.

Jess

[Smoothcall]

The difference is the 215'ers probably cheat. Not saying they couldn't be beatable if they were a fair game. But my guess is there is collusion at this level in sng's and unless you are one the cheaters your probably getting cheated. this is purely specualtion on my part though. I wonder if any agree. But to answer your question. If you know how to play sng's then what the difference what limit it is? Sure the competition is tougher but if you know how to play then you shold have the same advantage the other good players have. but i don't play these as the times i have i had a weird feeling that i had to do more than play good poker. But am interested in what the other 215'ers think.

[Shanemex]

Oh great, smoothcall joins the STT board... /images/graemlins/mad.gif

Top 5 STT colluders?

[Big Limpin']

is smoothcall's last name Georgiev?

[Daliman]

[ QUOTE ]
is smoothcall's last name Georgiev?

[/ QUOTE ]

No, it's Lepore.

[DonButtons]

hmm, just push every time its folded around to you... /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[citanul]

i've been meaning to watch some of your games lately to see how close to this you actually do. haven't actually played with you, uh, i think ever, so i can never tell how serious you are.

citanul

[Daliman]

[ QUOTE ]
The difference is the 215'ers probably cheat. Not saying they couldn't be beatable if they were a fair game. But my guess is there is collusion at this level in sng's and unless you are one the cheaters your probably getting cheated. this is purely specualtion on my part though. I wonder if any agree. But to answer your question. If you know how to play sng's then what the difference what limit it is? Sure the competition is tougher but if you know how to play then you shold have the same advantage the other good players have. but i don't play these as the times i have i had a weird feeling that i had to do more than play good poker. But am interested in what the other 215'ers think.

[/ QUOTE ]

Other 215'ers think you aren't good enough to beat the game consistently.

Other 215'ers also resent the implication that for little other reason than you can't beat them, you think we "probably cheat". Yeah, real easy to do while you have 4-8 tables going at a time.

[ QUOTE ]
If you know how to play sng's then what the difference what limit it is? Sure the competition is tougher but if you know how to play then you shold have the same advantage the other good players have.

[/ QUOTE ]

This requires you being as good as the other players. You're not.

[Smoothcall]

LOL. Now that was good!

[Smoothcall]

Not so good.

[Smoothcall]

How would you know? Again you talking about stuff you don't know. I am an excellent sng player. I have only played 2 215's as i'm afraid to play them as i worry of cheats. I could be wrong but i can't take that chance because if they are it would be almost impossible to overcome this. I would like to play them but if there is cheating i could lose alot of money fast.

[Daliman]

[ QUOTE ]
How would you know? Again you talking about stuff you don't know. I am an excellent sng player. I have only played 2 215's as i'm afraid to play them as i worry of cheats. I could be wrong but i can't take that chance because if they are it would be almost impossible to overcome this. I would like to play them but if there is cheating i could lose alot of money fast.

[/ QUOTE ]

2 215's do not make a foundation for accusation. If your worry is cheating, then I assure you the extent cheating occurs does not prevent me from a 16% ROI over 6000 of them, and if you are as good as you say you are, shouldn't prevent you from beating the game. That said, many a top NL pro has played these and gotten killed because they don't make proper adjustments, whether out of pride or stubbornness.

[byronkincaid]

[ QUOTE ]
I have only played 2 215's as i'm afraid to play them

[/ QUOTE ]

ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh diddums, Why don't you ask dallibaby to get his daddy and friends to go easy on you til you get your confidence up. All those winning $200 players who post here... naughty naughty men, they win so much money they must be colluding.

[Scuba Chuck]

Well, I'll try to take this back to OPs original question:

My answer is, I don't know. But here are my thoughts. What have I done, and what do I have yet to learn.

I've read TOP, TPFAP, HOHE, Championship NL/PL HE, Psychology of Poker, Hilger's book. I'd like to read super system in the near future. Other than that, I'm beginning to move on to the more psychological/zen type of books. None of these books, IMO, have helped me as much as this forum, and playing. It has been recommended to me, that branching out into the other forums, and learning different types of poker will also benefit my SNG play.

Other poker games:
I have very limited experience in Limit HE. I've played about 2,000 hands of NL cash games. And I've played in 3 MTTs lifetime. At this time, I believe there are significant benefits that can be transferred to SNGs from NL cash games and MTTs. How much in benefit? Maybe 2-10% ROI??

SNGs. I've played a few $109s. I've played about 400 $55s. I've played 1000 $33s. Don't know how many games below that level (over 1,000, less than 3,000). Most of my learning curve has come from playing games, and posting on this site. I've plugged many leaks, and have increased my game knowledge.

IMO, the ITM statistic can be misleading as it means significantly different things. Specifically, at the higher levels, you could have a lower ITM, but an outstanding ROI (relative to the level). In this case, your ITM play has it's benefits. How well you play, ITM, is the ROI difference. Lots to learn here still.

Other than that, I continue to study folding equity. How do I study? Practice, practice, practice. Folding equity is a study of psychology. Thus, it takes time to learn the psychology of the player you're playing against. I would think that it can take years of play to learn how to figure individuals psychology out quickly. I am constantly surprised by players who will call my QJo (insert any hand here) push, with T9o when they aren't shortstacked or desperate (at least chip-wise). IMO, they have one of two psychological thoughts that occur.
1. They know I'm bluffing, so they call, "proving" that I bluffed. They obviously have no regard for the gap concept.
2. They are giving up. This hand is "good enough." Thinking that if they don't double up now, I'm in big trouble, and this is prolly a bluff anyway, and then returning to #1 above.

Anyway, IMO, the biggest difference between where I'm at on the ladder looking up, is experience. I continue to repeat all the processes that I've learned so far, so that decisions become second nature to me. This comes from seeing many similar situations/hands over and over. Beyond that, I have a lot of psychology to learn. Psychology of betting behavior, psychology of "giving up." Psychology of surviving (personal). Psychology of Scuba. Recognizing the type of behavior a player has early that will transcend to how to exploit their behavior later, when the blinds are high.

Don't know if this is the answer you were looking for. GL
Scuba

[raptor517]

sigh. the first thing people say when they are not good enough to beat the game is that the other people are cheating. i mean, there is no possible way someone can be better than me at poker, so they have to cheat, right? RIGHT?!?!?!? holla

[John Hurst]

[ QUOTE ]
The difference is the 215'ers probably cheat. Not saying they couldn't be beatable if they were a fair game. But my guess is there is collusion at this level in sng's and unless you are one the cheaters your probably getting cheated. this is purely specualtion on my part though. I wonder if any agree. But to answer your question. If you know how to play sng's then what the difference what limit it is? Sure the competition is tougher but if you know how to play then you shold have the same advantage the other good players have. but i don't play these as the times i have i had a weird feeling that i had to do more than play good poker. But am interested in what the other 215'ers think.

[/ QUOTE ]

If this is a joke post - very funny. If this is not a joke post - very funny.

[Smoothcall]

Finally a discusion without completely attacking me. Although i sense an argumentative tone. Anyway, in my first reply i did say this is pure speculation. Thanks for the info on the 215's. What do you mean by make the adjustments? Do you mean the adjustment to playing for 3 spots rather than wehat they are used to playing winner take all events? Does a consistent winner in the smaller sng's stand to be a conssitent winner in the 215's? By the way way i say the cheating can hurt more in the sng's is because 2 guys can just give walk to each other or pass chips until you get knocked out 4th. Have you seen collusion?

[raptor517]

-make adjustments as in they dont play good tournament strategy.
-a consistent winner in the 10+1s probably has little hope of immediately beating the 215s. actually, maybe .01% has any chance to immediatley jump up there and make money.
-i really dont think collusion helps in a sng as much as people think it does.. but what do i know, i dont cheat.

holla

[stupidsucker]

Calling standards late is one of the largest separations of the good and the best.

Its not about folding AQ, its about folding AQ at the right times and calling with it at the right times. Same goes for hands like TT-QQ.

There is a possibility that I am way off the mark. I consider myself to be in the 1st category trying to break into the next one anyways.