Getting used to Swings in $5-10 6MAX

[goodguy_1]

Ok I'm finally playing this game pretty much fulltime..I still mix in some $3-6 and $5-10 FULL LHE and I'm not looking back unless I have to which I doubt will happen.I'm forcing myself to do this so I can move towards the $15-30 game with a more solid base.I want to get myself acclimated to swings of $400-$800 about twice my normal variance before I move up $15-30 Full where again the swings are double that.I am not going to jump from $3-6 to $15-30 and goddamn these $5-10 6MAX games are good!!I am playing 2000 hands a day which I've been doing for the last week or so.My background is that I'm a 2.50-3.25 bb/100 player in full-ring games on huge hours.Right now I consider myself to be one of the best $3-6 Full LHE multi-tablers at Party on the graveyard shift.I have played and beat all smaller 6MAX/5MAX/Short LHE games for between 1.75-2.75 bb/100 also on good samples.OK enough of the good stuff...here's the bad stuff...I'm a wussy and I have a really hard time handling these swings.I seem to have $400-$500 swings every other hour...my hourly sd for today's session I'm playing right now was $250 an hour now its come back towards my norm. of around $175 per hour.I started the day up $450 in my first hour then I was stuck $150 90 minutes later??I know I can make at bare minimum 1.25bb/100 plus rakeback to make around $390 a day.

Two Questions:
-Are these swings normal??
-Most importantly to you short players that have survived How did you get used to these swings when you first started playing this game regularly???

[balkii]

i've played nearly 200k of the 5/10 and 10/20 short and i'm nowhere NEAR used to the swings.

[goodguy_1]

hehe great post thnx for being so helpfull /images/graemlins/smile.gif

as long as you are being honest it's ok thu!

[___1___]

goodguy1,

[ QUOTE ]
i've played nearly 200k of the 5/10 and 10/20 short and i'm nowhere NEAR used to the swings.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've recently moved to the 10/20 6max and I still don't like the swings that I had at 5/10 6max. Downsings suck period. The idea of a zen-like indifference to even standard swings is beyond me and probably always will be. I make sure I have plenty of bankroll for the given limit (600-1000BB), take a big gulp before each session, and suck it up...

___1___

[goodguy_1]

[ QUOTE ]
take a big gulp before each session, and suck it up...

[/ QUOTE ]
aye

Do any of you guys use a loss-limit for any particular one table ?This can help you to avoid playing and going off for big numbers when your image is in tatters or you may be prone to tilt..say a 20-40 big bet limit?

[___1___]

goodguy1,

[ QUOTE ]
Do any of you guys use a loss-limit for any particular one table ?This can help you to avoid playing and going off for big numbers when your image is in tatters or you may be prone to tilt..say a 20-40 big bet limit?

[/ QUOTE ]

Nah, no self-imposed limit. If my table image is crap and I can't hit a flop to save my life, I've (albeit recently) learned to check my ego at the door and find a new table.

___1___

[twankerr]

[ QUOTE ]
say a 20-40 big bet limit?

[/ QUOTE ]

How about this. For the next 10kish hands, everytime you get down 30 big bets at a table, hit "deal me out" from all your games and walk away. Come back in 5 WHOLE minutes, take an honest look at the table and decide wether to keep playing or not.

[Jeff W]

[ QUOTE ]

Do any of you guys use a loss-limit for any particular one table ?This can help you to avoid playing and going off for big numbers when your image is in tatters or you may be prone to tilt..say a 20-40 big bet limit?

[/ QUOTE ]

No. The times where I lose a lot of money are usually at a great table: a week ago I dropped 3 buyins at a 10/20 table in an hour(Table VPIP >60, 20 BB Avg Pot). If you use good table selection and tilt control, I don't think you need a stop loss. Stay in tune with your state of mind and know when it is time to quit.

[goodguy_1]

That's what I am doing right now but instead of sitting out I just leave the table for good.Right now I use 20-30 bigbets as a guide... if the game is really good I'll do 30..if it's marginal I'm gone after 20.It's helping me out thats all I know.I usually 4-table and I also play pretty fast so this seems to help when things get swingy and I may not be focusing as clearly as I should be...

[climber]

your clearly a much better more experienced player than I but I am in a similar situation trying to get used to it.

last night i played 4 hours and was stuck 62BB 2 hours in. I ended the session up 35BB.

The hard thing for me is the tilt control and being able to judge when i can just buckle down and play through and when i need to just walk away. right now my best metric is if i feel like putting my fist through my 2001FP then i prob should stop.

[goodguy_1]

No we are all in the same boat if we're new to the game and now grinding it and trying to get used to the swings!I tend to throw my water bottle about-hah or throw my favorite Pilot Precise V7 Rolling Ball Pen across the room...I used to smash monitors and stuff until I bought LCD's-not anymore..

[goodguy_1]

[ QUOTE ]
If you use good table selection and tilt control, I don't think you need a stop loss. Stay in tune with your state of mind and know when it is time to quit.


[/ QUOTE ] yes but almost every session you go thru 2 or 3 half hour periods from hell where you get smoked badly..If I were to leave every session where this happened and I was scared,gunshy,pussified..I would never get in 2000 hands a day-obviously the problem is my perception of normal swingage and the roughness of the beats ie backdoor everything-runner runner straights flushes etc,also the 3-5 out beats heads-up or 3-way action seem to happen more regularly or it just may be the speed of the games.These beats and swings are the norm not an anomaly obviously for all players..this is therapeutic thats all I know..I think best way to go is just start out everyday expecting that you WILL be stuck $500.I am very disciplined about putting in massive hours so I'm gonna have to get used to it or revert to my old gameplan.The great thing about rakeback-as long as it lasts-is that it gives the mediocre player a chance to breakeven and learn a new game.
$5-10 6MAX pays out 7 cents per hand with a 30% rakeback that means just to break even playing 2000 hands a day you must be 0.70 bb/100 loser or worst to NOT make any money.Even a break even player that plays 14K hands a week will make $980 a week just on rakeback..the real work is getting the hands in day in day out and dealing with the swings.

[stigmata]

I think the most important aspect of getting used to variance is giving it time.

1. After you are sure you are beating the game for a significant amount, the swings become less of an issue. You know you win in the long run.

2. After youve had a really big downswing (e.g. 150BB) you will be able to shrug off the small downsings.

Give it time and it gets easier.

[Mr. Graff]

2000 hands every day - to me that seems pretty crazy especially if you are having issues with the swings. I'd be very worried about burnout.

[krishanleong]

[ QUOTE ]
1. After you are sure you are beating the game for a significant amount, the swings become less of an issue. You know you win in the long run.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is great, if only I knew I was beating the game.

[ QUOTE ]
2. After youve had a really big downswing (e.g. 150BB) you will be able to shrug off the small downsings.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm in a huge hole (270+) and the small downswings still tend to make me sad. I think if I start winning again, the intersession swing won't bother me.

Oh, and huge bankrolls definitely help.

Krishan

[stigmata]

Sorry to hear that. I went on a massive (200BB) downer at 10/20 and it really affected me - certainly some of it was tilt. The small swings did still affect me until I got over the downsing.

I think it can take a long time. 25k hands at 10/20 and i'm just starting to get used to the variance. I think there has only been one point in the last week where I have had to sit back and take some long, deep breaths /images/graemlins/shocked.gif

[stripsqueez]

the swings in short handed get more and more random - i got through huge stretches of win small amounts and never lose - then perhaps a violent stretch of lose - or win - then some extreme yo-yo for a while

playing 14,000 hands a week losing 200BB's isnt all that common but only feel like you have had a shocking run when you have lost 300BB's or more - keeping a huge buffer from having to care a bunch works for me

short handed is a tough game - you need all the options with the different gears and some table feel and you need it quickly

stripsqueez - chickenhawk

[arkady]

thats not that bad really. thats about 5 hours in 1 day, break that up into 2.5 hour sessions (one early, one late) and burnout is minimized if not existent.

[Matty]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
say a 20-40 big bet limit?

[/ QUOTE ]

How about this. For the next 10kish hands, everytime you get down 30 big bets at a table, hit "deal me out" from all your games and walk away. Come back in 5 WHOLE minutes, take an honest look at the table and decide wether to keep playing or not.

[/ QUOTE ]What I do is go to another site for a few minutes, kick some ass at microlimit headsup, and that usually fixes my worried little head.

[ctv1116]

[ QUOTE ]
Two Questions:
-Most importantly to you short players that have survived How did you get used to these swings when you first started playing this game regularly???

[/ QUOTE ]

Winning always helps. Higher win rate means smaller and less frequent downswings.

[goodguy_1]

[ QUOTE ]
thats not that bad really. thats about 5 hours in 1 day, break that up into 2.5 hour sessions (one early, one late) and burnout is minimized if not existent.


[/ QUOTE ]
yes I've been playing 1500-2000 hands a day for about a year and a half.Matter of fact the great thing is with the speed of 6MAX games I dont need to spend as much time playing..so it will give me more time to work on my game away from the table which I need badly.I 3 or 4 table with ease.I'm forcing myself not to play more games which I am inclined to do when say you see 6 or 8 $80+ pot average games going..I want to jump in every game ..this comes from 6-8 tabling full limit but it is out-of-line for me right now.I have a very disciplined work ethic when it comes to poker--which makes up for many of the deficiencies in my game..ie being a dumbass
The burnout factor from playing 2000 $5-10 6MAX hands vs. say 2000 $3-6 LHE Full is an issue.Positives are that even when I multi-table full games I'm very game selective and constantly table-hopping so my multi-table ratio is much lower than it would be for a normal 4-8 multi-tabler..that means playing the 2000 hands of $5-10 6MAX is much less time-consuming.Matter of fact last nite I was thinking of bumping up the daily numbers to 2500 or 3000 hands a day or 15K hands a week...but that's too ambitious for right now.Another factor is unlike some people who only play to make money ..I love poker and cant wait to play almost everyday so I dont get that grinding sensation unless I'm really struggling ie losing more than 2-3 days in a row.

Negatives are this playing fullring games it is not hard to win 5 out of 6 playing days and have relatively low swingage intraday and weekly anbd make $2K a week w/ rakeback.I have always tried to make money everyday and every week..this is not going to happen playing 6MAX as my main game.This is the key.I will not be winning as consistently on a daily basis (all my other 6MAX results in smaller games point to this -more choppy daily results),my intraday and intraweek swings will be bigger also-this is really the key.If the bottomline is you can make more money consistently at a higher limit even while winning less consistently-you should obviously choose the game you can make the most money at..and not be worried about consistency if it doesnt burn you out.I think it's called "sucking it up"-heh

btw if I go thru multiple large 200+bb downswings without have a corresponding decent winrate where I feel I know I can beat the game I have no qualms reverting back to my old gameplan.It took me multiple attempts to feel comfortable at the lowly $3-6 LHE Full last year..so struggling/failing at a new limit is'nt new to me.In other words I'm just an above average player with a much above average work ethic.This is really my first full flung attmept to play this game. /images/graemlins/grin.gif
I have not run particularly well over my first 15K hands...just ok but the games are very good and my play has alot of room for improvement which I'm starting to see..I'd be elated with a 1.00bb-1.75 bb/100 winrate plus rakeback-nothing grandiose that's $340 -$490 a day better than the ~$325 I make now.IF I can't make 1bb/100 than thats a problem because I will be taking a paycut..

[Klak]

maybe youre too used to being on multitabler autopilot. maybe try to only play 1-2 SH games until you get well adjusted?>

[goodguy_1]

yes I've cut back from 4-6 tables to 3-4 tables of late and it is really seems to be helping me play better.I will get bored playing 1-2 tables and getting in my required number of hands will take too long ..so 3-4 seems about right-maybe a multi-table ratio of 3.00 or 3.25/3.50 is optimal right now.