I flop quad aces, now can I slowplay?

[A_C_Slater]

The deck is completely crippled. This is not a hypothetical, this happened just ten minutes ago on Paradise $1/2. In two years of limit HE I have never flopped such a monster.

8 handed Table flops seen % is 45. I have not seen it this high at Paradise for a month. Most be due to the WSOP qualifier tournaments.


UTG folds, AC raises with AA, 3 folds, button calls, SB calls, BB calls.

(8 SB)
4 players --FLOP: A A 8



SB checks, BB checks, AC checks (blasphemy?), button checks.


(4 BB)
4 players--- TURN: A A 8 K


SB checks, BB checks, AC checks, Button bets, SB folds, BB folds, AC raises, Button calls.

(8 BB)

2 players---- RIVER: A A 8 K K


I can't ask for a better card than that one.

AC bets, button raises, AC reraises, Button calls.

[Aaron W.]

[ QUOTE ]
The deck is completely crippled. This is not a hypothetical, this happened just ten minutes ago on Paradise $1/2. In two years of limit HE I have never flopped such a monster.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't like the turn check-raise. You're lucky that button bet it for you. Many many times this is getting checked through on the turn, and there's still no money in the pot on the river.

When you cripple the deck like this, a flop check is fine, but you've got to start putting money in on the turn. (I still would have bet the flop and hoped somebody would try to raise to represent an ace.) Your best hope is that somebody will catch something there and they are will go to war with you (or at least call you down).

Think about it this way: If the turn gets checked through, you're probably going to collect 1 BB from the one caller who is curious to see what you have. Does that 1 BB make you happy about slowplaying? It's much better to just bet the turn. You'll get the same guy calling you down, except he'll pay 2 BB instead of one.

[davelin]

Your turn check was horrendous.

[istewart]

Meh, irrelevant either way. Should bet the turn though, at minimum.

[A_C_Slater]

[ QUOTE ]
Your turn check was horrendous.

[/ QUOTE ]


I object.

Horrendous is a bit strong. It's not like I checked TPTK to a CS HU.

[MrWookie47]

I'm actually more surprised that checking the flop than check/raising the turn didn't completely kill your action. It looks like you hit a monster, or slowplayed "trips." However, the fact that you did it on a K may be more believable than a blank.

What were the suits of the flop? If there were two of a suit, I'd be more inclined to bet, since someone might call with a flush draw, or even a back door.

I think you really, really lucked out on the turn. Button betting was a gift. I think you really ought to have bet the turn at the very least. Had it gotten checked through, you would have some serious atoning to do.

[davelin]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Your turn check was horrendous.

[/ QUOTE ]


I object.

Horrendous is a bit strong. It's not like I checked TPTK to a CS HU.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, instead you were perfectly content to let this go to the river with no bets put in.

[AlmightyJay]

Bet the flop. They don't know you have quads.

[A_C_Slater]

[ QUOTE ]
Bet the flop. They don't know you have quads.

[/ QUOTE ]

But besides pocket pairs what could they possibly call with on this flop. It was a rainbow.

[davelin]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Bet the flop. They don't know you have quads.

[/ QUOTE ]

But besides pocket pairs what could they possibly call with on this flop. It was a rainbow.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is an online poker table, which will never be misstaken for a MENSA convention.

[A_C_Slater]

The bottom line is maximizing profit. I feel that I did this in the above hand this is why I am advocating a slowplay in this situation. If the flop came A 7 2 and I flopped a set I would bet. I am not given to slowplaying. In fact, I would prefer the first flop because the Quad flop leaves the deck completely crippled. What I object to is the adamant dogma on the micro limit forum about NEVER slowplaying, ever, even if it leads to greater profit, which to me is absurd. You have to let them catch something when the deck is crippled this badly.

[istewart]

Situations where a full-out slowplay is warranted come up so rarely that they have a negligible effect on your winrate. Such as...quads.

[AlmightyJay]

I don't advocate never slowplaying. But I do advocate almost never checking a flop after raising preflop with no other aggressors. I'm almost always more scared of a check in that situation than a bet.

And don't forget that someone might have 23s and think "I only need two more cards for a straight or a flush!"

[istewart]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't advocate never slowplaying. But I do advocate almost never checking a flop after raising preflop with no other aggressors. I'm almost always more scared of a check in that situation than a bet.

And don't forget that someone might have 23s and think "I only need two more cards for a straight or a flush!"

[/ QUOTE ]

You can/should be checking quite often if you flop just overcards into a big field.

[mmbt0ne]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">En réponse à:</font><hr />
The bottom line is maximizing profit. I feel that I did this in the above hand

[/ QUOTE ]

You wouldn't be saying this if Button checked through on the turn. The whiff is a powerful motivation tool.

[Rev. Good Will]

This is the second time I'm gonna break out this quote:

"They do not know you flopped quads. They do not know they are drawing dead. Even if they did know, half of them would probably call anyway."

-Ed Miller
source (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&amp;Number=1548569&amp;page=&amp;view=&amp;s b=5&amp;o=)

It's SO true /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[parks]

any reads on the table? aggro passive.. these can occasionally change the way a hand like this may be played.

betting the turn is a must, out of curiosity what did the button have?

[A_C_Slater]

[ QUOTE ]
This is the second time I'm gonna break out this quote:

"They do not know you flopped quads. They do not know they are drawing dead. Even if they did know, half of them would probably call anyway."

-Ed Miller
source (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&amp;Number=1548569&amp;page=&amp;view=&amp;s b=5&amp;o=)

It's SO true /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[/ QUOTE ]


In that example Ed had 66 on the button and flops quads after 8 people check to him. This situation is different. These players were not that bad.

[Entity]

I've said this many times, but I'd tend more to bet the flop and check the turn when I flop quads and I think my opponents are decent. You'll get loose flop calls pretty often but not as often on the turn.

[Aaron W.]

[ QUOTE ]
The bottom line is maximizing profit. I feel that I did this in the above hand this is why I am advocating a slowplay in this situation. If the flop came A 7 2 and I flopped a set I would bet. I am not given to slowplaying. In fact, I would prefer the first flop because the Quad flop leaves the deck completely crippled. What I object to is the adamant dogma on the micro limit forum about NEVER slowplaying, ever, even if it leads to greater profit, which to me is absurd. You have to let them catch something when the deck is crippled this badly.

[/ QUOTE ]

The turn check is really bad, and there's no way to argue around it (at least you haven't provided a solid argument yet). And the problem with your anti-dogma is that it is equally dogmatic. Your argument comes quite close to saying "I should slowplay this because it's wrong to never slowplay."

Most flops that are 4-handed see the turn at least 2- or 3-handed. Many of those see the river 2-handed. You can't make "greater" profit if you go all the way to the river before putting in a bet. It has been pointed out that you're quite lucky the turn was bet for you.

You've got to realize that in that spot, you were lucky to have runner runner kings AND to have someone (apparently) holding a king. Do you know how often the turn and river come runner-runner to fill up somebody's boat? Do that math sometime -- it's quite rare. Far more often, everyone will see the river and you'll collect 1 BB or maybe even 2 BB if you're lucky. You get more than that by just having one donk call you on the flop, turn, and river (you know that possible pocket pair you mentioned in another post... guess who is calling you down).

[davelin]

[ QUOTE ]
The bottom line is maximizing profit. I feel that I did this in the above hand this is why I am advocating a slowplay in this situation. If the flop came A 7 2 and I flopped a set I would bet. I am not given to slowplaying. In fact, I would prefer the first flop because the Quad flop leaves the deck completely crippled. What I object to is the adamant dogma on the micro limit forum about NEVER slowplaying, ever, even if it leads to greater profit, which to me is absurd. You have to let them catch something when the deck is crippled this badly.

[/ QUOTE ]

You know there is only 3 post-flop streets right? Checking two of them doesnt' seem like maximizing profit to me.

[Dead]

You should spend more time thinking about how to extract value from everyday hands, like top pair, rather than worrying about extracting value from hands like quads, which don't come along very often.

[scotty34]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't advocate never slowplaying. But I do advocate almost never checking a flop after raising preflop with no other aggressors. I'm almost always more scared of a check in that situation than a bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

As am I. I watch this happen constantly, and try not to fall into this trap myself. Whenever there is a preflop raise, and high cards hit the flop, and the PFR checks, my first instinct tells me monster. The only time I ever do this is when I have 88-TT and the flop comes 2 or 3 overcards and I'm OOP, and I'm betting into a pretty big field.

There are idiots out there, but you can't always count on them to bet for you when they have absolutely nothing. Are you still checking the turn if a 6 hits? Not that it makes much of a difference, you should bet regardless, but I'm just curious to your exact line of thinking.

[droolie]

Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, J/images/graemlins/spade.gif. CO posts a blind of $0.75.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+1 calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls, MP3 calls, CO (poster) checks, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, UTG+1 calls, Hero calls, MP3 calls, CO calls.

Flop: (12 SB) K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
UTG+1 checks, Hero checks, MP3 checks, CO checks, <font color="#CC3333">Button bets</font>, UTG+1 calls, Hero calls, MP3 calls, CO folds.

Turn: (8 BB) J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
UTG+1 checks, Hero checks, MP3 checks, <font color="#CC3333">Button bets</font>, UTG+1 calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, MP3 folds, Button calls, UTG+1 folds.

River: (13 BB) A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, Button calls.

Final Pot: 15 BB

[A_C_Slater]

[ QUOTE ]
You should spend more time thinking about how to extract value from everyday hands, like top pair, rather than worrying about extracting value from hands like quads, which don't come along very often.

[/ QUOTE ]

I already know how to do that. I post this because it doesn't come along very often, and top pair hands are routine.

[reubenf]

While I hate the turn check in AC's hand, am I the only one waiting for the river to raise on droolie's hand?

[A_C_Slater]

[ QUOTE ]
Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, J/images/graemlins/spade.gif. CO posts a blind of $0.75.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+1 calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls, MP3 calls, CO (poster) checks, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, UTG+1 calls, Hero calls, MP3 calls, CO calls.

Flop: (12 SB) K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
UTG+1 checks, Hero checks, MP3 checks, CO checks, <font color="#CC3333">Button bets</font>, UTG+1 calls, Hero calls, MP3 calls, CO folds.

Turn: (8 BB) J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
UTG+1 checks, Hero checks, MP3 checks, <font color="#CC3333">Button bets</font>, UTG+1 calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, MP3 folds, Button calls, UTG+1 folds.

River: (13 BB) A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, Button calls.

Final Pot: 15 BB

[/ QUOTE ]

Great slowplay. Boy, you really showed those fish I tell ya. Good job.

[droolie]

If villian has QQ-AA the turn J is a dream card.

I thought I'd take a stab...

[bottomset]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You should spend more time thinking about how to extract value from everyday hands, like top pair, rather than worrying about extracting value from hands like quads, which don't come along very often.

[/ QUOTE ]

I already know how to do that. I post this because it doesn't come along very often, and top pair hands are routine.

[/ QUOTE ]

alright worry about toppair nokicker, middlepair+overcard, bottompair+gutshot, gutshot+bdflush, 2overcards+bdflush etc

the hands that comeup very often that aren't routine(and toppair hands for the record aren't really that routine, tons of diff situations, and plenty different lines to take with them)

[A_C_Slater]

I do worry about all of those things constantly. I just wanted to see if I could get anyone to agree that a slowplay stance is a good idea in this instance.

The button had KJ.

[scotty34]

Flop = questionable, but not terrible IMO
Turn = Bet!