Trouble with Crabs

[CEE]

This was a great, late night PP table. MP1 and MP3 were the only tight players at the table (both folded PF in this hand). Everyone else was LPP (emphasis on the PP... well... emphasis on the L too, everyone over 45% VPIP). Had already "free-carded" myself to several straights and was up 25BB in about 30 hands when I ran into 33 in MP.

Interested whether anyone would have folded PF, or any thoughts as to whether I should have folded to the three bet on turn (can't imagine that with pot of this size...)

Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, CO calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">SB raises</font>, BB calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, Hero calls, CO calls.

Flop: (12 SB) Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 3/images/graemlins/club.gif, 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(6 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, BB calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 folds, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, CO calls, SB calls, BB calls, UTG calls.

Turn: (11 BB) 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, CO calls, SB calls, BB folds, <font color="#CC3333">UTG 3-bets</font>, Hero calls, CO calls, SB folds.

River: (22 BB) 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, Hero calls, CO calls.

Final Pot: 25 BB

[cold_cash]

If you folded anywhere in this hand it would be the suckiest fold that ever sucked.

I think you played it okay. I might have capped the turn, depending.

[Buck_65]

I know I'm capping this turn every time. I think I'd even raise the river if bet into, and folding anywhere is terrible.

[scotty34]

See a doctor and he will get you a prescription for some cream. Should clear those crabs right up. And next time, wrap it up.

[CEE]

[ QUOTE ]
I know I'm capping this turn every time. I think I'd even raise the river if bet into, and folding anywhere is terrible.

[/ QUOTE ]


Maybe I don't get it, but I don't see the cap on the turn. I have decent aggro stats: F 3.2 T 3.9 R 2.3

If I were heads up against one loosey sure... but there were two of 'em, and many hands that beat me: A5, 56, QQ, 44

Or some hands that don't beat me: Q2, Q4, Q3, 23, 24, 34, 22.

Maybe this is a pot-equity thing?

If it's a given that one of the two made their straight, I would have 9 outs to a non-nut full boat, and one to quads... 22% equity while I contribute 33% to the pot. So the equity is not there.

Guess it comes down to what pct of the time I think these two terrible players have cards that beat me. Sounds like my meter is set differently than others.

[tor]

*grunching*

I don't like this pf call because you're 8:1 to hit your set and you don't know what the people behind you will do.

[turaho]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't like this pf call because you're 8:1 to hit your set and you don't know what the people behind you will do.

[/ QUOTE ]

On a passive table with two limpers in front of me, I'd limp a low pocket pair in MP every time.

[zuluking]

This is a no-brainer for capping the turn.

[davelin]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't like this pf call because you're 8:1 to hit your set and you don't know what the people behind you will do.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a VERY routine pre-flop call.

[tor]

Turaho, davelin, I don't understand why this is a no-brainer. Granted at this point, I'm only reading WLLH, but I don't see the odds. Can you kindly elaborate as to why?

[MrWookie47]

I'll limp 33 UTG at all but the tightest tables without a second thought. I'd also cap the turn without batting an eye. If he calls the cap and fires at me at the river, I'll just call, assuming I don't fill up.

[jrz1972]

Small pocket pairs are all about implied odds. You will rarely be getting the correct "immediate odds" to make your set, but on those occasions when you DO make a set, you will win a whole bunch of extra bets on future streets, making your real odds much better than they might initially appear. For example:

Hand 1: Miss set, lose 1 SB.
Hand 2: Miss set, lose 1 SB.
Hand 3: Miss set, lose 1 SB.
Hand 4: Miss set, lose 1 SB.
Hand 5: Miss set, lose 1 SB.
Hand 6: Miss set, lose 1 SB.
Hand 7: Miss set, lose 1 SB.
Hand 8: Hit set, win 20 SB.

As long as you're at a table where it's not constantly raised and reraised PF, you should be automatically limping with 33 UTG and should sometimes be coldcalling PF raises if enough people are coming along.

[parappa]

I think about capping the turn, but I end up playing it exactly as you did.

[MrWookie47]

Ah, yes, WLLH has a pretty tight standard of limping. However, at loose tables, you're likely to get 4-5 to the flop, getting you most of the way to the odds you need. The rest of the odds are so incredibly easy to make up if you hit your set that, well, you're set. If you miss, check/fold and try again next time, at least until you get much more comfortable with your post flop play and are willing to pursue marginal situations.

[turaho]

I'll limp in a low PP at a loose-passive table because:

My opponents are loose:
1) They're often limping in preflop with horrible hands.
2) Enough of them often limp in to give me odds for hitting a set.
3) A lot of them will call down to the river will losing hands, giving me great implied odds.

My opponents are passive:
1) A raise behind me is unlikely, but when it does happen I'll be getting even better odds to call preflop.
2) If I don't hit my set on the flop and I'm faced with checking or calling one bet, the pot may be big enough to give me odds to see the turn.
3) If I don't hit my set on the flop and I'm faced with calling two bets cold to me, I know I'm beat and have no problem folding my hand.

(Edited to remove one of my passive points, because I thought about it and decided I was wrong.)

[Buckmulligan]

I don't think I would stop raising that turn if I were you.

[davelin]

[ QUOTE ]
Turaho, davelin, I don't understand why this is a no-brainer. Granted at this point, I'm only reading WLLH, but I don't see the odds. Can you kindly elaborate as to why?

[/ QUOTE ]

You don't need to be guaranteed 8:1 odds in order to continue with your low PP. Implied odds says you can certainly make up post-flop what you miss pre-flop.

[Buckmulligan]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't like this pf call because you're 8:1 to hit your set and you don't know what the people behind you will do.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you don't make this call 100% of the time, I will have to kill you.

[HajiShirazu]

I think I'd 4 pimp that turn especially with the other guy in.

[joeski19]

<font color="red">Something like that. </font>

Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with 3, 3.
1 fold, Hero calls, 1 fold, MP1 calls, 1 fold, MP3 calls, 3 folds, BB raises, Hero calls, MP1 calls, MP3 calls.

Flop: (8.50 SB) J, 3, T (4 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, MP1 folds, MP3 calls, BB raises, Hero 3-bets, MP3 folds, BB caps, Hero calls.

Turn: (8.75 BB) K (2 players)
BB bets, Hero raises, BB 3-bets, Hero calls.

[wyoak]

i like calling down from there in joeski's hand unless BB is a complete maniac, but i cap turn in OP's hand.

[mvoss]

I'd cap the turn and raise the river. I don't know if this is to aggressive, but I don't think the board looks that scary.