Set of ducks vs a TAG

[jhall23]

Villian in this hand is a TAG as subject states. Being across the table from me we haven't tangeled much. Pretty sure he is at least a decent player and is aware of my play. Only hand I remember with him was where I check-raised him on a flop with nothing when I was in the blinds when he tried to pick up the pot on the flop and he folded. Big raise from the blinds is almost definetly a top hand, he isn't raising that wide a range of hands (about 7-8 %).

I don't want to raise this guy on the flop as I'm most likely losing him unless he has AA and I should be able to get a better Idea about his range on the turn.

I think it's unlikely that he will bet into me with nothing on the turn so I can narrow his range down now to probably AA, AK most likely since he obviously knows I'm not on a draw. With no draw I decide to just call again and let him bet the river again. I think at this point with the pot size he'll probably lay down AK still at this point.

River, do you think he'll pay off with AK here? Should I push him in or just call. It feels weak to just call but I think it might be correct here given he is probably aware of my play and knows I am not a donk. I don't know if he is tricky enough to make an blocking bet with AA hoping I'll come over the top.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (6 max, 5 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Hero ($132.3)
MP ($47.57)
Button ($22.45)
SB ($65)
BB ($53.75)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with 2/images/graemlins/club.gif, 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif. SB posts a blind of $0.25.
Hero calls $0.50, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">SB (poster) raises to $2.75</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls $2.50.

Flop: ($6.50) 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets $4</font>, Hero calls $4.

Turn: ($14.50) T/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets $7</font>, Hero calls $7.

River: ($28.50) 7/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets $12</font>.

Final Pot: $40.50

[mythrilfox]

I raise 22 in 5-handed, but that's personal preference.

I'd raise the flop. If he drops AK here he is too tight for his own good, and you will be able to take shots at him all session long. 5-handed I don't think I've ever folded a set, so I'd be looking to build this pot as quickly as possible. Sure, you don't particularly want to get stacked off to AA, but the amount of money you make off AK here will compensate for the times you get stacked off.

Having not raised the flop, I agree that calling the turn is best, as raising there shows too much strength.

On the river, I think his play is almost as likely to be AK as it could be AA. He could very well think he's milking here with AK as well, which is why I can't go this entire hand without raising. If I raised and he pushed, I don't know what I'd do. I think I'd call.

I also think that if he folds everything you beat to a raise anywhere in the hand, you need a SERIOUS image adjustment. I also think you're over-estimating his tightness. At SS I've only been stacked off once on set over set, and every other time they were playing so aggressively you'd swear to god you were gonna get stacked off again. On non-scary boards and these stakes, I am getting my money in with no regrets.

[jhall23]

[ QUOTE ]
I raise 22 in 5-handed, but that's personal preference.

I'd raise the flop. If he drops AK here he is too tight for his own good, and you will be able to take shots at him all session long. 5-handed I don't think I've ever folded a set, so I'd be looking to build this pot as quickly as possible. Sure, you don't particularly want to get stacked off to AA, but the amount of money you make off AK here will compensate for the times you get stacked off.

Having not raised the flop, I agree that calling the turn is best, as raising there shows too much strength.

On the river, I think his play is almost as likely to be AK as it could be AA. He could very well think he's milking here with AK as well, which is why I can't go this entire hand without raising. If I raised and he pushed, I don't know what I'd do. I think I'd call.

I also think that if he folds everything you beat to a raise anywhere in the hand, you need a SERIOUS image adjustment. I also think you're over-estimating his tightness. At SS I've only been stacked off once on set over set, and every other time they were playing so aggressively you'd swear to god you were gonna get stacked off again. On non-scary boards and these stakes, I am getting my money in with no regrets.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hey Mythril,

I do raise 22 ocassionaly but It say it's probably 75% call 25 % raise.

I do think this guy is too tight and I have been taking shots at him when we are in pots together but I am more aggressive than him and he is usually not in the pots with me cause I am raising alot pre-flop.

I'm not really concerned about getting stacked off by AA, I'm trying to come up with the best line to get the most money given the texture of the flop against his range of hands. I think if I raise the flop he may call with AK but am not sure and he could have a worse hand that I can't get another $ out of if I raise. Since the board had no draws I opted for the call. Not saying that raising is bad, just wanted to lay my thoughts down since you may have thought I was scared to loose my stack. This is probably the place I definetly think raising could have been better but I am not convinced yet either way. Since we hadn't been involved in too many pots together and very few past the flop I didn't know how he would react with AK If I raise it up.

River I agree it's at least as likely AK as AA, maybe even more so just because there are more ways he can have AK. I just couldn't determine if he would call a raise on the river. Given the texture of the flop and the way the hand played I would assume if he was good (not that sure but he was at least a tag) what can put me on on the river to make a call with. So my ? is whether I think this guy would call a push with AK or not. I'm just not sure. The only raise amount that makes sense given his stack and the pot is to put him in. Given I was call-call pre-flop and then there were no real obvious draws out there I think my hand range must be small to him and he may have too much information to call with just AK.

FWIW I think my image is fine, it's his image I have that I am working around. I am definetly tighter than everyone else at the table but that's not saying much when most are probably about 50%.

[Trainwreck]

I thump him on the river 100% of the time here, if I don't thump him here, I will never thump him...

Much more likely he has AK-AJ then AA here so playing the #'s I have to raise him.

&gt;TW&lt;

[RiverTheNuts]

Any raise on the river will pot commit you if he comes back up over the top, if he is a solid player he probably can get away from AK if you raise the river, so I dont really think flatcalling all 3 streets is terrible

[Trainwreck]

Value bet in my mind... /images/graemlins/grin.gif

But cautious call is OK.

Folding is the bad move... LOL!

&gt;TW&lt;

[RiverTheNuts]

Actually, I can see him calling a river minraise thinking he has you outkicked on the ace... minraise it! hah

If he pushes to a minraise then he definately has you beat.. you will be getting 3:1 to call a push though, which makes it rough, which is why I kinda like flatcalling...

[Trainwreck]

Yup, test raise to $24, see what happens, then again opens a can of worms, might as well push him AI, since he started with only $65.

[jhall23]

I think I'm becoming less interested in the river on this hand now. Obviously if I knew he had AKish I would pushing allowing hime to make a mistake. Given the action me pushing here must look like a big hand because that would be a hell of a bluff or bad move with AQ or something so I am not confident he would call with AK.

Kinda interested on the flop now. After thinking about it more I'm pretty confident he'll call with AK most of the time but fold the any none A hand and I think AQ is probably pretty unlikely. I'm trying to determine the most likely action after that. If he leads the turn I can't raise again because that would appear super strong and it would be hard for him to call with AK. But then perhaps the pot would be big enough that he would be more likely to get his stack in with AK on the river. If he checks maybe I can get a call and a blocking bet on the river. He might be tight enough just to see if I bet the turn again and would then fold though hoping I check it through.

If I just call the flop he has a chance to make a nicer looking second best hand like two pair. Hmmm.

[jhall23]

All day and no comments /images/graemlins/frown.gif. I thought this hand was pretty interesting hand given the opponent and flop texture and I would love to hear some thoughts on what people think is the best line.

[DoomSlice]

Raise the turn, bet the (now inflated!) river.

[TheWorstPlayer]

[ QUOTE ]
Raise the turn, bet the (now inflated!) river.

[/ QUOTE ]
i agree. You are likely to get a check/call or bet/fold on river anyways, so you are not going to stack off unless you raise the turn to try to build the pot. If he is good enough to not lose his stack five handed with TPTK against an aggressive opponent, then find another game. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[jhall23]

[ QUOTE ]
If he is good enough to not lose his stack five handed with TPTK against an aggressive opponent, then find another game.

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL. No way, the game was quite good actually it had been six hand but we just lost one. We just handn't tangeled much since he was mostly in EP when I was making most of my raises etc. So I just wasn't sure how he would play in a hand against me as presumably if he was good he would play differently with TPTK against me then the others. Just not enough interaction to try and guess what level he is thinking at. Plus I am 2-3 tabling (can't remember)to clear the empire bonus so I don't have a super read just that he is tag.

Anyway, I was thinking that call/flop - raise/turn was such a standard set looking move that I might loose him with AK and that's why I didn't raise the turn.

You didn't mention anything about the flop. Do you like calling the flop as opposed to raising it?

[Allinlife]

I raise this flop nearly everytime against typical players, because you can get lure Ax's pretty far on short handed games, so I aim to stack these guys with my set by buliding the pot from the flop.

[TheWorstPlayer]

The reason why call the flop, raise the turn is such a common line with a set is because it is such a good line. It makes someone with TPTK commit a lot of chips out of position before being put to a decision. If this opponent is weak and won't pay off here, then maybe waiting for the river is better, but usually people will call the turn and then block the river. I think raising the flop let's him off the hook easier since even if he calls the flop he will most likely fold the turn when you keep bombing away, especially if he is weak, since he will easily see that he will have to go to the felt with two streets left to play.

[jhall23]

That's pretty much what I was thinking on the flop as well, especially since there were no draws or anything with which I could raise as I would on a semi-bluff. Rasing the flop would be seen as either a bluff or exactly what I had and I would have to bet the turn if checked to and then he could get away if he was still around. It would be hard for him to continue with a TPTK like hand unless he is the type that although tagish overvalues these which I just didn't know.

I think I may have out thought myself on this one on the turn and river but it was a good exercise none the less.