Accidentally called PFR...should I continue on the flop? [Archive]

bozlax

04-10-2005, 05:00 PM

New to the table, so not much in the way of reads. I was planning to complete PF if it was only 1/2 when it got to me, then accidentally called when my attention was diverted by the Masters.

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is SB with T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG calls, UTG+1 raises, 2 folds, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, 2 folds, Hero calls, BB calls, UTG calls.

Flop: (12 SB) 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 3/images/graemlins/club.gif (6 players)
Hero checks, BB checks, UTG checks, UTG+1 bets, MP2 folds, MP3 folds, Hero ?

Should I continue? I've got 4 clean outs to a nut straight that I figure nobody else is playing plus a BDFD, so I'm giving myself 5-plus outs. Any disagreement?

istewart

04-10-2005, 05:05 PM

Pretty easy call.

bozlax

04-10-2005, 05:06 PM

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is SB with T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG calls, UTG+1 raises, 2 folds, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, 2 folds, Hero calls, BB calls, UTG calls.

Flop: (12 SB) 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 3/images/graemlins/club.gif (6 players)
Hero checks, BB checks, UTG checks, UTG+1 bets, MP2 folds, MP3 folds, Hero calls, BB calls, UTG calls.

Turn: (8 BB) 7/images/graemlins/club.gif (4 players)
Hero checks, BB checks, UTG bets, UTG+1 raises, Hero 3-bets, BB folds, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls.

River: (17 BB) 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif (3 players)
Hero bets, UTG folds, UTG+1 calls.

Final Pot: 19 BB

After the hand, one of the table's schoolmasters yelled at me for the next 3 hands for calling to an inside straight. I admitted that calling the flop was an accident, and told him, "I figured once I was in I might as well see it home." I think he nearly had a heart-attack, and I'm pretty sure I could actually feel him spitting at his monitor.

AlmightyJay

04-10-2005, 05:06 PM

13:1 with a gutshot and a backdoor flush draw. Definitely a call.

GrunchCan

04-10-2005, 05:11 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is SB with T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG calls, UTG+1 raises, 2 folds, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, 2 folds, Hero calls, BB calls, UTG calls.

Flop: (12 SB) 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 3/images/graemlins/club.gif (6 players)
Hero checks, BB checks, UTG checks, UTG+1 bets, MP2 folds, MP3 folds, Hero calls, BB calls, UTG calls.

Turn: (8 BB) 7/images/graemlins/club.gif (4 players)
Hero checks, BB checks, UTG bets, UTG+1 raises, Hero 3-bets, BB folds, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls.

River: (17 BB) 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif (3 players)
Hero bets, UTG folds, UTG+1 calls.

Final Pot: 19 BB

After the hand, one of the table's schoolmasters yelled at me for the next 3 hands for calling to an inside straight. I admitted that calling the flop was an accident, and told him, "I figured once I was in I might as well see it home." I think he nearly had a heart-attack, and I'm pretty sure I could actually feel him spitting at his monitor.

[/ QUOTE ]

PF notwithstanding, nice hand. Your table coach was wrong; you clearly had the odds to call. Take advantage of your pretty solid weak-tight read on your opponent. You learned more about his play in this one hand than you could in 100 if he never chirped up.

Greg J

04-10-2005, 05:15 PM

Do not compound one error with another. Easy call.

jaxUp

04-10-2005, 05:23 PM

Whenever somebody gets pissed off at me for playing a certain hand the way I did, I like to tell them that it's my lucky hand, and that I always have to see the river with it, because you just never know.

Ianco15

04-10-2005, 05:29 PM

I may be a little looser than the average poster but I have no problems with the preflop call.

bigmac366

04-10-2005, 05:29 PM

you have to peel one off here. if you hit it will be great for your table image too /images/graemlins/grin.gif

jaxUp

04-10-2005, 05:31 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I may be a little looser than the average poster but I have no problems with the preflop call.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was kind of thinking this too but was too much of a pussy to be the first one to say it, figuring that I am just too loose. But now that you have said it, I think that I might make this call a lot of the time.

CallMeIshmael

04-10-2005, 05:33 PM

I accidentally clicked on micro limits, and then saw this title.... so I checked it out..

the preflop call is hardly that bad. I would call here.

I ran a sim, using turbo TH, with T8s in the small blind, in a 2/4 game, facing a raise, and the same # of opponents.

Hero lost $10,176 over 10,000 hands by playing.

Hero loses 10,000 by folding (because of the $1 blind).

I feel the advantage I have over my opponents makes this call +EV for me.

And yes, folding that flop would be terrible.

EDIT: When I say: "I feel the advantage I have over my opponents makes this call +EV for me," I mean, by playing better than my opponents postflop.

Dave G.

04-10-2005, 05:49 PM

We're getting 5.66:1 on this preflop call. UTG will more than likely call as well making it at least 6.33:1 on implied odds. This is short of the 7.4:1 against odds we have of flopping a made flush or a flush draw, but we almost have enough odds to just go for the flush alone. Adding in two pair chances, straights and other favourable flops and the PF call isn't that bad.

CallMeIshmael

04-10-2005, 05:57 PM

Though I do agree with the preflop call..., this:

[ QUOTE ]
This is short of the 7.4:1 against odds we have of flopping a made flush or a flush draw, but we almost have enough odds to just go for the flush alone.

[/ QUOTE ]

Is not correct.

The odds against flopping a flush draw, and the preflop pot odds required are not the same thing.

This is only true if:

(EV for the set of flops: flush/flush draw) = 1.5 sb

(1.5sb = hero's investment)

This is clearly not the case.

Dave G.

04-10-2005, 06:06 PM

I'm not quite sure I understand, can you elaborate a bit please? We are 7.4:1 against flopping a made flush or a flush draw. Is it not correct then to use pot odds to decide on this call?

Shillx

04-10-2005, 06:11 PM

Don't beat yourself up over the PF call. It is close either way and it is more a figment of the PFR then anything else. Against a loose raiser the call is fine.

The fact that you are asking about what to do on this flop is kinda disturbing. Should we just throw pot odds out the window and fold because we are probably beat? /images/graemlins/confused.gif

Brad

CallMeIshmael

04-10-2005, 06:30 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not quite sure I understand, can you elaborate a bit please? We are 7.4:1 against flopping a made flush or a flush draw. Is it not correct then to use pot odds to decide on this call?

[/ QUOTE ]

You are supposed to use them.. but, its not the same as the odds against flopping the flush...

Let me setup a really bad example that should get the point accross:

You have 23s in the SB

UTG raised, and 5 players cold called. Thus, you are getting 9:1 on your call.

Now, lets examine the times when you flop a flush DRAW (ignoring the times you flop a made flush).

Odds against flopping a 4 flush: 8.1:1.

What is your expected value when you flop a 4 flush.

Well, lets assume that you win the pot about 20% of the time you flop a 4 flush.

Lets assume you lose 3BB post flop on average the times you lose.

Lets assume that, on average, the final pot will me 18BB (not counting what you are putting in).

Thus, your EV on flopping a flush draw is:

Times you win*Amount you win - Times you lose*Amount you lose

0.2*18 - 0.8*3

1.2BB.

For some reason, lets assume you only play on when you flop a 4 flush (clearly untrue, but it allows the point to come accross easier)

Now, the question becomes: do we have odds to call for our 4 flush?

Well, according to your method, yes, because we are getting better than 8.1:1.

But the actual way we measure it is:

You flop a 4 flush 11.0% of the time. You expect to make 2.4 sb. The other 89% of the time, we lose 1.5 sb.

Therefore:

0.11*2.4 - 0.89*1.2 = -0.8BB

Basically, even though you are getting 8:1 preflop, its not like you have an EV of ALL 8 of those bets if you flop a 4-flush.

(note: the above example isnt great... but I think it gets the point accross... I did this quickly, while watching the masters, so there could even be a math error in there.. but it was mainly for the point)

grjr

04-10-2005, 06:50 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I may be a little looser than the average poster but I have no problems with the preflop call.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would have called this hand preflop from the button also let alone the SB. I love these types of hands in a raised multiway pot because if I flop a draw or a made straight or flush I know I'm going to get some good action all the way. These are the kind of pots that really make your day.

bozlax

04-10-2005, 07:46 PM

To tell the truth, I just wanted to post the hand because of the table-teacher's reaction, but I didn't want to put NO CONTENT in the title /images/graemlins/laugh.gif.

Walker

04-10-2005, 08:33 PM

Getting 13-1 this is the easiest call in the world. What's the minimum pot size required to call this bad boy?

aK13

04-10-2005, 10:56 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Getting 13-1 this is the easiest call in the world. What's the minimum pot size required to call this bad boy?

[/ QUOTE ]

about 10...maybe even 9 or 8 with implied odds o_O

EDIT: of course, this is a highly favorable board, since the board is rainbow, his straight would be the nuts, and BDFD

Entity

04-10-2005, 11:02 PM

I don't get the "accidentally called PF" bit. I make this call routinely getting 10.5:1.5. You better not fold the flop though.

I would bet the turn though.

Ringo_Mojo

04-10-2005, 11:25 PM

You've got the odds, I'd call this.

cmwck

04-10-2005, 11:27 PM

call, no question

Dave G.

04-10-2005, 11:38 PM

Ah okay, I think I get it. It seems to be more a measure of your equity than straight out pot odds. That makes sense now that I think about it, thanks. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Entity

04-10-2005, 11:41 PM

[ QUOTE ]

Don't beat yourself up over the PF call. It is close either way and it is more a figment of the PFR then anything else. Against a loose raiser the call is fine.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't even think it's all that close.

Rob

bottomset

04-11-2005, 02:22 AM

I like the whole hand, every street

I don't like that we have to tell you to call a gutshot to the nuts on a rainbow board getting 13/1

Walker

04-13-2005, 03:09 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Getting 13-1 this is the easiest call in the world. What's the minimum pot size required to call this bad boy?

[/ QUOTE ]

about 10...maybe even 9 or 8 with implied odds o_O

EDIT: of course, this is a highly favorable board, since the board is rainbow, his straight would be the nuts, and BDFD

[/ QUOTE ]

This looks like a pretty clean 5.5 outer to me, giving break-even pot odds of 7.5-1 on the flop. We definitely have implied odds here but I'm not sure how to quantify this. If someone could spell this out for me in detail and include their work I would appreciate it.
As an added plus, you won't have to suffer continuous requests for detailed posts on implied odds from me in the future. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Walker

04-13-2005, 09:57 PM

bump

GrunchCan

04-13-2005, 10:47 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Don't beat yourself up over the PF call. It is close either way and it is more a figment of the PFR then anything else. Against a loose raiser the call is fine.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't even think it's all that close.

Rob

[/ QUOTE ]

This thread got bumped & I didn't recognize it. When I read the original hand again, I thought "Mistake? What mistake? It would be a mistake to fold with 5 opponents."

Isn't that funny...

Entity

04-13-2005, 10:55 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Don't beat yourself up over the PF call. It is close either way and it is more a figment of the PFR then anything else. Against a loose raiser the call is fine.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't even think it's all that close.

Rob

[/ QUOTE ]

This thread got bumped & I didn't recognize it. When I read the original hand again, I thought "Mistake? What mistake? It would be a mistake to fold with 5 opponents."

Isn't that funny...

[/ QUOTE ]

It's nice to be a LAG. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Rob

GrunchCan

04-13-2005, 10:58 PM

[ QUOTE ]
It's nice to be a LAG. /images/graemlins/smile.gifRob

[/ QUOTE ]

I was just watching WPT. That's got to have something to do with it!

grjr

04-13-2005, 11:19 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It's nice to be a LAG. /images/graemlins/smile.gifRob

[/ QUOTE ]

I was just watching WPT. That's got to have something to do with it!

[/ QUOTE ]

Go ahead and admit it. I'm getting to you aren't I? /images/graemlins/wink.gif

Entity

04-13-2005, 11:28 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It's nice to be a LAG. /images/graemlins/smile.gifRob

[/ QUOTE ]

I was just watching WPT. That's got to have something to do with it!

[/ QUOTE ]

Go ahead and admit it. I'm getting to you aren't I? /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

If anyone's convincing grunch to go LAG, I hope it's me.

I stopped in at 1/2 for a while today to see if it was as tight/passive/rockish as everyone said. I was 23/12/2.5 over an admittedly small sample size, but I can't believe people are trying to eek out winnings at that game as 14/6 players or whatever.

jubeirm

04-13-2005, 11:30 PM

I'll take a stab at it. Please correct me if I am wrong. Here is how I compute implied odds:

I call this bet and the turn; assume the BB folds; and I close my eyes and don't open them until the river.

For this pot: I will have put in 1.5 BB (flop + turn) to the pot's 7.5 BB (6.5 plus UTG+1's turn bet) thus giving me the 5:1 I need to call.

If the BB calls both the flop and the turn (this might be a stretch), and I assume the pot after UTG+1's flop bet is x then when I open my eyes on the river I will see Pot = x + 2.5 BB. To get the odds for my meta-game here x must be 5 BB. Thus the smallest the pot can be for this example, when UTG+1 bets, is 10 SB.

If your wondering what the odds of the BDFD... I figure there are 3x43x2 (7 /images/graemlins/spade.gif /images/graemlins/heart.gif /images/graemlins/club.gif and other) + 34x2 (7 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif and non-7 nor /images/graemlins/diamond.gif) + 12 (7&7) + 90 (/images/graemlins/diamond.gif&/images/graemlins/diamond.gif) ways for the next 2162 turn and river cards to give me the winning hand (high flushes etc. not considered) which is 4.0:1 a little worse then 5-outs estimate of 3.9:1. Then the above two scenarios reduce to:

Assume BB folds: (x+1):1.5 = 4:1 requires pot be atleast 10 SB
Assume BB calls: (x+2.5):1.5 = 4:1 requires pot be atleast 7 SB

wabe

04-14-2005, 12:53 AM

(Grunch time)

You screwed up and called. On the flop, you have odds to call. On the turn, you hit your straight. The rest is money.

Don't apologize for hitting hands any more.

[edit] The call preflop depends on the read. I might not call this against a rock, but the suited one gap is nice. Not as much of a mistake as I first thought.

ArturiusX

04-14-2005, 01:03 AM

[ QUOTE ]

I stopped in at 1/2 for a while today to see if it was as tight/passive/rockish as everyone said. I was 23/12/2.5 over an admittedly small sample size, but I can't believe people are trying to eek out winnings at that game as 14/6 players or whatever.

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly my thoughts. Some people think the way to beat a table is to play slightly tighter than everyone else, thus you'll have better hands. its not.

Entity

04-14-2005, 01:07 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Not as much of a mistake as I first thought.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not a mistake at all. I think folding would be a mistake.

Shillx

04-14-2005, 01:11 AM

Exactly my thoughts. Some people think the way to beat a table is to play slightly tighter than everyone else, thus you'll have better hands. its not.

Playing tighter then everyone else is a good way to beat a table up to a certain point. If the table is playing too tight, then you do better by playing loose and aggrressive and stealing pots after the flop from people who fold too much. But at a 35/5 table or whatever, you can do very well by playing a 20/10 game.

In general though, the best way to beat a game is to attack the weak players and avoid the better players. So you pull isolation moves on weak players and fold against tight limps, etc.

Brad

chunk

04-14-2005, 02:04 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Should I continue? I've got 4 clean outs to a nut straight that I figure nobody else is playing plus a BDFD, so I'm giving myself 5-plus outs. Any disagreement?

[/ QUOTE ]

continue.

check raise if villian isn't too aggressive.
bet the turn if a 7,8,10,J,Q or diamond comes.
UI check reevalutate.

I think at the flop you have more equity than 5 outs worth and you can be more sure to secure them by making BB and UTG get out

SoftcoreRevolt

04-14-2005, 03:19 AM

I prefer "Gambool" and "u can't win if u dunt' play" and other badly spelled garbage for 5 minutes until the coach is totally on tilt.

Then when they restate I didn't have odds, in perfect English I tell them "oh I did" and from there spell out exactly why I played the hand perfectly... BUT, if they had only raised the flop I wouldn't have odds and would have folded. (This only applies when they absolutely shouldn't have even been in the hand, not when they are in a situation where raising would give them better winning odds, of course. The idea is to make them make even more mistakes.)

"hmm, then I would've only lost 2 bets to the other guy..."

A maniac is born!

But for this hand, I like every street. The SB call is one I won't make every time with T8, but it's perfectly reasonable. Everything else is super.

KingOtter

04-14-2005, 12:56 PM

[/ QUOTE ]I stopped in at 1/2 for a while today to see if it was as tight/passive/rockish as everyone said. I was 23/12/2.5 over an admittedly small sample size, but I can't believe people are trying to eek out winnings at that game as 14/6 players or whatever.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm 21/10/2.1 over there right now over an admittedly small sample size (but maybe bigger than yours) of 500 hands or so. That's a bit shocking to me, considering I've been 18/7 quite solidly through .5/1.

KO