Chronic River Absence of Balls?

[cartman]

Party 5/10 (6 max).

According to the much appreciated responses from my last stats post, I have focused heavily on increasing my aggression.

preflop AF has gone from 1.52 to 2.11
flop AF has gone from 2.89 to 3.42
turn AF has gone from 2.05 to 2.37
river AF has gone from 1.29 to 1.33 (what a disgrace)

I rarely bet the river heads up with worse than 2nd pair except when I am against a preflop raiser and I am pretty sure he has just overcards, in which case I bet with any pair. Should I be betting with 3rd pair or worse even when I've been called on the flop and the turn?

My best guess as to why my river aggression is so low is that I must not fold enough when I am clearly beaten. For instance, when I get checkraised on the river heads up I always call with top pair. Is this a mistake?

Here are my river stats.
Raise%= 4.53
Bet%= 26.40
Call%= 24.02
Check%= 36.07
Fold%= 8.98

Folded to a River Bet%= 28.23


Do I have chronic absence of balls? Am I just not folding enough? I know I suck, but I really don't know how to improve this. Please comment or advise or call me names or anything else.

Thanks,
Cartman

[J.R.]

[ QUOTE ]
Am I just not folding enough?

[/ QUOTE ]

probably, unless you are playing a lot of hands and against pretty aggro opponents, this is pretty low, what limit are u playing? for 5-10 I think mid-high 30s thru low 40s would be much more desirable

[tolbiny]

Preflop play is about your starting hands and position
Flop and turn play is about Value betting, protecting your hand and about haveing odds to continue.

River play- More than anything else- is about showing down the winner when you have it. Value betting is second, and saving bets a distant third. there are different ways to go about it- but your main concern should be taking down the pot. Value betting becomes less important if you would have to fold to a raise- betting into two opponents to prevent haveing to fold possibly the best hand when it is two bets back to you (just a specific situation), or bluffing your missed draws are what is necessary to become a winning player on the river. Mastering the art of taking down the pot is something expert players do while mid level players worry about value betting, or making big folds.

[cartman]

[ QUOTE ]
for 5-10 I think mid-high 30s thru low 40s would be much more desirable

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you referring to the "folded to a river bet" stat which is currently 28.23% for me? This is for Party 5/10 (6 max).

Thanks,
Cartman

[J.R.]

[ QUOTE ]
River play- More than anything else- is about showing down the winner when you have it. Value betting is second, and saving bets a distant third. there are different ways to go about it- but your main concern should be taking down the pot

[/ QUOTE ]

I think the flop and turn present more opportunites/situations where taking down the pot is the prime interest, and I think the turn, and to a lesser extent the flop, (especially when in position) is where you make the important decisions regarding getting to a showdown. On the river its pretty easy to showdown, u just call.

Although now that I think about it you are probably talking about avoiding an approach of value bet too thinly (because value is too high a priority) and then folding to a lot of raises, and I agree with that line of thinking, but I also think its not the thin value betting aspect of the approach you identified that presents the problem (although with op's very low folded to a river bet stat, I don't think that's an issue for him).

[krishanleong]

River agression tends to be less than flop and turn. Its a combination of things. I think you are folding way too much. If you know access and can write sql, write a query to see the % of hands won when you are cr on the river with top pair. Easy way to let you know top pair isn't enough.

Maybe Peter can write it and post it.

Krishan

[J.R.]

yes. Its a pretty loose passive game, IMO, with a few glaring exceptions.

[J.R.]

I think you are folding way too much

typo?

[tolbiny]

"I think the flop and turn present more opportunites/situations where taking down the pot is the prime interest, and I think the turn, and to a lesser extent the flop, especially when in position, is where you make the importatn decisions regarding getting to ashowdown."


REreading my post i realize that i totally missed the point i wanted to make- and you made it for me, that the flop and the turn are the important streets for putting you in a winning position, and that river play should be fairly basic compared with the flop and turn as now turning over the winning hand is the most important part, and it can be fiarly easily accomplished.

[krishanleong]

[ QUOTE ]
I think you are folding way too much

typo?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah not folding near enough.

Krishan