Mirage 20-40: Ultra thin river bet or check behind?

[Dynasty]

Same 3-handed game as below with Kevin and Ben.

The hand:

I'm on the button with 6d5h and limp. Kevin completes in his small blind. Ben checks his option in the big blind.

The flop is: 8h,4s,4c

Kevin bets out. Ben folds.

Here's was my assessment of the situation at the time. Kevin could have lots of hands ranging from quads to virtually nothing. However, they should all have 6-high beat. Therefore, I've got to improve in order to win the pot. But, I don't necessarily need a 7 to make a straight. Spiking either a 6 or 5 could be enough since Kevin could bet either 22 or a non-pair hand.

I decided to call.

The turn is: 8h,4s,4c,5s

I've spiked a 5! Is it good? Kevin bets and I call.

The river is: 8h,4s,4c,5s,Qc

Kevin checks. His check tells me one thing for certain- he doesn't have trip 4's or better. He'd bet that and expect me to call with a wide range of hands. I doubt he would go for a checkraise with a big hand fearing that it would get checked through.

However, he could have hands which beat my 5's up but can't beat much more. For example, he could have 82. Perhaps he just fears that I was calling with overcards that contain a Queen.

So, do I have a thin value bet on the river knowing that Kevin will also call with many hands that can't beat 5's up?

Of course, criticisms of all previous streets is welcome.

[Ikke]

IMO playing 65o on the button is marginal to say at least, especially with two (very aggressive) players. I hope you balance you preflop hands well otherwise you wll propably get played with.

I like your call on the flop. You are right that spiking a 5 or 6 may very well be good, and a raise most likely wont get Kevin to fold. Furthermore you leave the option open to semi-bluff raise on the turn (which I certainly consider as an option).

No that you've got a pair on the turn, you have to call, and a raise loses most of it's value. Let him bet a worse hand for you and lose minimum if he has your beat (and draw cheap in that case).

I would bet the river. It's true that he's not likely to hold a bare ace, but with this low board (and with draws) he might even call with K high etc hoping you missed. I also think he doesnt figure you for an 8. IMO you should have protected such hand by either a flop or turnraise. Furthermore a very thini value bet adds great value to your image. It gives you a very strong image when it succeeds, because it almost says something like "I know exactly where you're at" and I think people are less likely to play with you (and in the future you might have more success with your bluffs).

Regards

[Clarkmeister]

I would fold preflop.

I would likely raise the turn representing a 4. Overcards have 6 outs against you and you wouldn't mind him folding. I think you should proceed as if you have the best hand.

On the river it is a clear bet IMO, and you can fold to a checkraise.

[hutz]

I would fold preflop. double ditto that!

Having gotten to that point, a turn raise and river bet seem reasonable.

[mike l.]

[J_V]

It's not a clear fold preflop. The flop call is good if he will your hand in anyway shape or form. I believe you should fold if he will be the turn 100% of the time. Many players play like this.

I call the turn, and bet the river.

[FatLoser]

I would raise the turn and check the river if a scarecard hits, like the Q. I would bet the river too if it was 9 or lower. Maybe T. My reasoning is that if I'm in the lead I charge him for his draw and if he reraises I can fold thus making the cost equal to two calls. If he's bluffing and folds to my raise I have no problem with that since my hand is fragile.

FatLoser

[AceHigh]

If you are going to limp with 65o, you should probably raise with J8o(or whatever the last post was), lol.

preflop marginal, but not unreasonable.

on the flop I fold.

raise the turn.

check the river if get called on turn.

"do I have a thin value bet on the river "
Yes.

[Andy B]

I think your play on all streets is fine. I don't understand the folks who advocate folding pre-flop. You have two cards and the button in a three-handed game. How much more do you need? I probably limp from the button more than most in short-handed games, though. I think you have a clear value bet on the river.

[Dynasty]

I checked behind on the river.

My 5's were good. Kevin had AJ, a hand I think he would have called with since I've seen him call down in full ring games with Ace-high. I was also stunned he didn't raise with it pre-flop. But, this hand came after he lost a couple pots to me (including the KJ hand posted) so he may have been slowing down.

I was disspointed with my play in this hand on every post-flop street. I was too focused on making a hand. Since I had a draw on the flop and a pair with a draw on the turn, I should have made a play at the pot rather than trying to showdown the best hand. If I'm going to play a marginal hand like 65o then I've got to get the most out of it when I hit the flop.

Playing "make the best hand" with 65o is foolish poker.

[Jeffage]

I think you need to raise more playing shorthanded. You seem to be playing too passively here, and I think the turn is a clear raise. You want him to fold a hand with 6 outs or at least pay heavily to try to hit them.

Jeff

[Ikke]

Why I prefer folding is because of the players in SB and BB. Dynasty described them as good aggressive players.
So, chances are you get raised. Furthermore, with 65o you can't totally rely on making your pair; you should often
have to succesfully play back with a draw, even if it's a gutshot, to make this play profitable IMO. Against two well
playing, thinking opponents, I would pass this very marginal situation, and wouldnt rely on me outplaying two good
opponents. Give two weak passive opponents and I will play virtually anything from the button in a 3-handed game,
but here....no. But it's not a big decision, I just think there are valid reasons for folding, calling and even raising; I just
opt folding. Do you think this is a clear call and not even close with folding?

Regards

[Mikey]

this is too weak of a hand to be playing shorthanded. Folding preflop with 65o is much better

[Jeffage]

Agreed, was commenting on Dynasty's post flop play.

Jeff

[Andy B]

I think it's close. Usually, when I'm in a three-handed game, playing hands like this is marginally profitable. It may be dubious in this situation, but you still have position, and the flop is likely to miss both of your opponents. I'll take my chances. 'Sides, I like to gamble. /forums/images/icons/smile.gif