Folding on the river for one in a big pot

[RunDownHouse]

Reads: Villian was almost down to the felt at one point, but has recovered nicely. He seems reasonable, especially for this level.

Anyone think this is an auto 3bet pf, given that everyone is coming along for the ride?

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is SB with A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
UTG calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises</font>, Button calls, Hero calls, BB calls, UTG calls.

Flop: (10 SB) 6/images/graemlins/club.gif, 3/images/graemlins/club.gif, 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
Hero checks, BB checks, UTG checks, <font color="#CC3333">CO bets</font>, Button folds, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, BB folds, UTG calls, CO calls.

Turn: (8 BB) 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, UTG folds, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises</font>, Hero calls.

River: (12 BB) 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">CO bets</font>, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 13 BB

I just couldn't think of a hand he might have on the river I could beat.

[krishanleong]

Auto 3-bet preflop at this level. It makes the rest of the hand much easier to play because he won't get out of line against a 3-better showing agression the way he might against someone who just called.

I don't like the flop raise. I understand what you are trying to do, but it's not the correct spot for it. I call the flop and fold the turn unimproved.

Give how you played the flop, the turn and river look good. You've built up your fold equity on the flop, so the turn bet is good. You get raised so are likely behind but are getting great odds to spike a pair greater than his overpair. River, you miss and fold. Perfect.

I really think this got out of control on the flop.

Krishan

[fyodor]

I believe bluffing in this game into 3 opponents is a cry for help. It's certainly not a way to make money.

[balkii]

i am gonna go 180 from the other poster and say that given the way you played it preflop, the flop checkraise is mandatory, especially given that the button folded. very decent chance you hold the best hand and may even have him dominated. its unlikely the flop hit the other players.

[RunDownHouse]

Fyodor: Its not a bluff. Given table reads, I thought my hand was best. The power combo of him flat calling the flop c/r and then raising my turn lead convinced me otherwise.

EDIT: And obviously, if anyone other than villian calls my flop c/r, I shut down immediately.

[DrGutshot]

I think you played this hand well. I really dont like 3betting preflop unless you're gonna knock out limpers, which you won't.

flop c/r - good.

turn - bet good, the call of the raise is very borderline.

river - given that you called the raise, fold is good without a strong aggressive read.

-DrG

[Alobar]

I just cold call here in the SB as well. But thats mostly cuz I dont know what to do. AJ I fold, AK I raise, so AQ I get lost.

Flop play is standard. Calling here given the size of the pot would be I think a mistake, you may very well have the best hand, no one called between you and the raiser, make the other 2 donks pay two if they want to play.

The only thing I see wrong with folding the river is that when you raise the flop on this board, CO is sitting there thinking "this clown is trying to represent a 6, he doesnt have one, that would be a stupid way to play it!!" So it is possible he plays back at you on the turn with something like AJ AT KQ, etc. When the river brings another 6, he KNOWS you dont have one (which he suspected anyway, especially when you didnt 3 bet the turn), he also knows the flush draw you were prolly getting cute with didnt come in, so he bets.

I might very well have called here.

[fyodor]

Granted there are hands worse than yours that CO would have raised preflop, but there are plenty of better hands he could have raised with as well. Add in that there are 2 players yet to act behind you including the BB who could easily have the trips and is just waiting to cr himself and I wouldn't be so sure your hand is best.

I think you can fold to his turn raise in any event. If your overcard outs are both good you have odds, but I doubt at this point they are good.

[mperich]

I call here at 10/20. Close tho, but Alobars analysis is dead on.

-Mike

[ggbman]

I would 3 be this preflop, which would make the rest of the hand easier to play.

[billyjex]

[ QUOTE ]
I think you played this hand well. I really dont like 3betting preflop unless you're gonna knock out limpers, which you won't.


[/ QUOTE ]

I'm trying to understand why you don't think 3-betting PF will get the BB to fold and possibly UTG. It would be better to play AQo against fewer opponents, yes?

[helpmeout]

Auto 3bet preflop. I dont know what people are smoking to say just calling is fine. This is fundamental stuff, 1/2 players will limp with crap your hand is very good you 3bet.

What are you hoping for with the flop raise? Your hand might be best but you arent going to get 1/2 players to fold overcards, a flushdraw, OESD, or a 3, you need to hit to win so just call.

[RunDownHouse]

I'm working on the "raising strong aces against the field" thing. FWIW, I'd 3bet AK here just about always. For some reason it becomes much harder to pull the trigger with anything weaker against an entire table that will surely call. Like I said, I'm trying to work this stuff out.

[ QUOTE ]
What are you hoping for with the flop raise? Your hand might be best but you arent going to get 1/2 players to fold overcards, a flushdraw, OESD, or a 3, you need to hit to win so just call.

[/ QUOTE ]
I just disagree with this, and I think some people are overestimating how loose 1/2 players are. Yes, they are horrible, but hands like T7, J7, even hands like Kx, will fold when faced with two. On the flop, I think I've got the best hand, but its very vulnerable, and any time I can get those overs to fold is very valuable. Also, the raise gave me info that made the hand much easier to play UI. If anyone other than villian calls my raise, I can put them on a strong draw or pair pretty easily, and shutdown if needs be.

I also think that there's an argument to be made that the hands willing to call two cold are those that I'm dominating, like unpaired Ax and QJ. Essentially, I thought I was best, but realized that these players would be more than happy to peel if it was just one bet. Raising was the best way to protect my best hand.

[Transference]

[ QUOTE ]
What are you hoping for with the flop raise? Your hand might be best but you arent going to get 1/2 players to fold overcards, a flushdraw, OESD, or a 3, you need to hit to win so just call.

[/ QUOTE ]

This seems to be very flawed logic from a normally solid poster to me... what gives?

[DrGutshot]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think you played this hand well. I really dont like 3betting preflop unless you're gonna knock out limpers, which you won't.


[/ QUOTE ]

I'm trying to understand why you don't think 3-betting PF will get the BB to fold and possibly UTG. It would be better to play AQo against fewer opponents, yes?

[/ QUOTE ]

Hi Billy - sorry it took me so long to reply.

You're absolutely right that you would like to play AQo against fewer opponents. Unfortunatly, there is no way you will be able to do that here.

I don't think 3betting AQo here is terrible, as I would definitely do it with AKo. I would usually do it with AQs here as well.

The problem is, realistically, you will get UTG to fold by 3betting maybe 3% of the time tops. The initial raiser may also cap, which many aggressive opponents could do with very weak hands. This means that you'll be out of position with a weak hand in a multiway pot. This is a very bad spot.

The one GOOD thing about your position is that you have a chance to try to knock out a couple players with a checkraise. You would not be able to do this if you 3bet.

Also, if the flop comes unfavorably, it is much easier to get away from this hand.

Hope this helps

-DrG