Preflop Pop Quiz: [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

Zoelef

04-09-2005, 03:17 PM

My play at UB recently is like watching a cow give birth to siamese twins, so I'm taking some downtime and rereading SSHE (again) before I tilt off any more than I already have.

For the last session I pulled a bison and mentally sounded off what I'm doing and why However, since most of the postflop stuff was rather automatic when I looked over it, I went back to my preflop list and began questioning if anything of my judgements were poor...

SemiLoose-Neutral Tables, ~35% to flop, ~5-6BB pots average
Edit: Full-Ring Tables, usually 9-10 handed

Preflop Decisions:
01.) 5 limpers to you: ATo on button
02.) MP1 Raises, 1 coldcall: JJ in CO
03.) AJs UTG
04.) MP2 Raise, MP3 Reraises, JJ in CO
05.) 3 Limpers + SB; QJo in BB
06.) 99 UTG
07.) 2 Limpers; Q9o in SB
08.) Folded to you: 33 on Button
09.) 1 Limper: QTo in MP1
10.) 1 Limper, SB folds: KJo in BB
11.) UTG+1 Raises: AQo in UTG+2
12.) UTG+1 Raises: 99 in SB
13.) MP3 Raises, SB Calls: A4o in BB

Shillx

04-09-2005, 03:42 PM

01.) 5 limpers to you: ATo on button
02.) MP1 Raises, 1 coldcall: JJ in CO
03.) AJs UTG
04.) MP2 Raise, MP3 Reraises, JJ in CO
05.) 3 Limpers + SB; QJo in BB
06.) 99 UTG
07.) 2 Limpers; Q9o in SB
08.) Folded to you: 33 on Button
09.) 1 Limper: QTo in MP1
10.) 1 Limper, SB folds: KJo in BB
11.) UTG+1 Raises: AQo in UTG+2
12.) UTG+1 Raises: 99 in SB
13.) MP3 Raises, SB Calls: A4o in BB

1) Call
2) Reraise
3) Raise
4) Coldcall for information
5) Check
6) Call/Raise mix, right now I'm 2:1 Raise to call.
7) Complete. Fold if BB raises.
8) Fold.
9) Fold.
10) Depends where limper is. Probably raise though.
11) Fold.
12) Call if BB is loose. You are getting 4.5:1.5 so you need to make up 6.75 SB if you only play for set value (and you won't always play just for set value of course). This is a reasonable amount to make up imo. I'd probably reraise with a tight BB and play my hand for what it is.
13) Fold. A4 in this spot isn't a very good hand. I'd much rather see K9 or QJ.

Brad

btspider

04-09-2005, 03:49 PM

01.) 5 limpers to you: ATo on button
call

02.) MP1 Raises, 1 coldcall: JJ in CO
easy 3-bet

03.) AJs UTG
easy raise

04.) MP2 Raise, MP3 Reraises, JJ in CO
if they were EP, i'd fold. if they have a wide PF range here, i'd cap. i don't think a fold is terrible if readless or passive read here. with other limpers, i'd either call for info or cap to get dead money in the pot.

05.) 3 Limpers + SB; QJo in BB
easy check.

06.) 99 UTG
raise or limp.

07.) 2 Limpers; Q9o in SB
eh, close. fold isn't bad w/o any reads to help you postflop. QTo is a call in a 1/2 structure.

08.) Folded to you: 33 on Button
raise or fold. reads help.

09.) 1 Limper: QTo in MP1
easy fold.

10.) 1 Limper, SB folds: KJo in BB
where's the limper? raise or check depending on reads/position.

11.) UTG+1 Raises: AQo in UTG+2
fold w/o a read

12.) UTG+1 Raises: 99 in SB
fold if he's tight. raise if he's loose, consider a call if BB is loose.

13.) MP3 Raises, SB Calls: A4o in BB
easy fold.

Dead

04-09-2005, 03:57 PM

[ QUOTE ]

01.) 5 limpers to you: ATo on button
02.) MP1 Raises, 1 coldcall: JJ in CO
03.) AJs UTG
04.) MP2 Raise, MP3 Reraises, JJ in CO
05.) 3 Limpers + SB; QJo in BB
06.) 99 UTG
07.) 2 Limpers; Q9o in SB
08.) Folded to you: 33 on Button
09.) 1 Limper: QTo in MP1
10.) 1 Limper, SB folds: KJo in BB
11.) UTG+1 Raises: AQo in UTG+2
12.) UTG+1 Raises: 99 in SB
13.) MP3 Raises, SB Calls: A4o in BB

[/ QUOTE ]

1. Call
2. 3bet
3. Raise
4. Fold.
5. Check.
6. Raise
7. Fold
8. Raise
9. Fold
10. Raise
11. Fold
12. Call
13. Fold

I am open to criticism.

InFeRn0

04-09-2005, 04:05 PM

1)call
2)call
3)bet
4)fold
5)check?
6)call
7)fold
8)raise
9)fold
10)check
11)call
12)call
13)fold

TomBrooks

04-09-2005, 04:11 PM

SemiLoose-Neutral Tables, ~35% to flop, ~5-6BB pots average
Edit: Full-Ring Tables, usually 9-10 handed

Preflop Decisions:
01.) 5 limpers to you: ATo on button RAISE OR CALL
02.) MP1 Raises, 1 coldcall: JJ in CO RAISE
03.) AJs UTG RAISE
04.) MP2 Raise, MP3 Reraises, JJ in CO CALL
05.) 3 Limpers + SB; QJo in BB CHECK
06.) 99 UTG RAISE
07.) 2 Limpers; Q9o in SB FOLD/ 2: CALL (MARGINAL)
08.) Folded to you: 33 on Button FOLD / 2: RAISE ??
09.) 1 Limper: QTo in MP1 FOLD
10.) 1 Limper, SB folds: KJo in BB CHECK
11.) UTG+1 Raises: AQo in UTG+2 CALL ??
12.) UTG+1 Raises: 99 in SB COMPLETE
13.) MP3 Raises, SB Calls: A4o in BB FOLD

chiachu

04-09-2005, 04:12 PM

oh man.. lets see how bad i can mess this up

1) fold
2) reraise
3) limp
4) reraise
5) check
6) limp
7) fold
8) fold
9) fold
10) check
11) reraise
12) fold
13) fold

and yes, i am a weak tight player /images/graemlins/frown.gif

istewart

04-09-2005, 04:14 PM

In the JJ after a raise and a 3-bet hand, is MP2 open-raising?

Yobz

04-09-2005, 04:16 PM

01.) 5 limpers to you: ATo on button

I would probably raise here, try to get a free card on the flop if I miss.

02.) MP1 Raises, 1 coldcall: JJ in CO

Raise, easy raise.

03.) AJs UTG

Raise

04.) MP2 Raise, MP3 Reraises, JJ in CO

If I had any read on MP2/MP3 then I would go by that...I can see fold/call/raise in this sitation, very read based. Against unknowns then I would probably fold if they bet from EP, raise if they bet from CO-1 and CO.

05.) 3 Limpers + SB; QJo in BB

Call, you have no other options

06.) 99 UTG

Raise, maybe call

07.) 2 Limpers; Q9o in SB

Fold

08.) Folded to you: 33 on Button

Raise

09.) 1 Limper: QTo in MP1

Fold

10.) 1 Limper, SB folds: KJo in BB

Any read on limper? Either call or raise, depends on reads

11.) UTG+1 Raises: AQo in UTG+2

Any reads? Fold *most* of the time, maybe throw in a call or raise if you have a read

12.) UTG+1 Raises: 99 in SB

Probably raise and then bet into him on the flop.

13.) MP3 Raises, SB Calls: A4o in BB

Fold

Yako

04-09-2005, 04:25 PM

I'm gonna take a shot at this because I'm pretty satisfied with my preflop play, and so I'm sure I should get at least 80% of these right. Anyways, let the pooh-bahs correct the false info I might spread! /images/graemlins/wink.gif

1) Raise. You have position and at least 50% of those hands against you are just random garbage.
2) Reraise. Force the blinds to put more money in the pot with junk hands, and maybe they might even fold some of your overcards. Besides, once again, you have position on the raiser and coldcaller, both of which are likely to have a wide range of hands, of which only 3 are ahead of you and 2 are coinflips at this point. Don't be weak/tight!
3) Limp. You'd prefer to play this multi-way. If you raise, most of the people who will call you are likely to be ahead of you. Although at a very loose table I'm sure a case could be made for raising this.
4) I know SSHE says to fold, but I would flat-call depending on my reads. I've seen way too many people reraising on PP 0.50/1.00 with hands that shouldn't be reraised to fold this 100% of the time. Depends on your reads, although under normal circumstances it's most likely a fold.
5) Check. So many people limp with Ax, and those hands are all ahead to your QJ. Besides, you might be up against hands such as KQ and KJ that fishes don't usually raise, and those hands dominate you. As if that isn't bad enough, you're out of position.

6) I usually limp this but that's because I'm a really lousy postflop player. I've heard some of the better players on this board say that you can open-raise this, but I think it's dependant on your postflop skills.

7)I'd fold this. Way out of position, too many hands dominate you, and alot of hands start out ahead of you.

8)Raise. You've got position, and you've got a good hand to try and steal the blinds. Things get tricky if you get reraised though, but I think you should raise anyway. Make the fish pay.

9)I'd fold this. It's not a great hand

10) This is tough, but I think I just check. Read-dependant though. Against people that fold too often on the flop and after, I might raise. Against someone who always shows-down though, I think I want to see the flop before I decide what to do.

11) Fold, unless the raiser is a maniac, then reraise to isolate him.

12) I think I'd reraise this to see what happens, but this is probably a mistake. I wonder, is this a case of raise or fold?

13) FOLD!!! You're out of position with a really weak offsuit hand... Would you limp with this UTG? Then why would you play this against a raise?

Yobz

04-09-2005, 04:47 PM

I have a question: 3 limpers, I'm on button w/KQo, I raise, SB raises, 2 folds and a limper limp/caps. I ...?

I folded...

Dead

04-09-2005, 04:54 PM

Good fold. You're just too likely to be dominated.

einbert

04-09-2005, 05:12 PM

01.) 5 limpers to you: ATo on button
Easy fold.

02.) MP1 Raises, 1 coldcall: JJ in CO
Easy three-bet.

03.) AJs UTG
Easy raise.

04.) MP2 Raise, MP3 Reraises, JJ in CO
Depends on reads, against unknowns I call.

05.) 3 Limpers + SB; QJo in BB
Easy check.

06.) 99 UTG
Easy raise.

07.) 2 Limpers; Q9o in SB
Depends on the structure, probably call.

08.) Folded to you: 33 on Button
Easy raise.

09.) 1 Limper: QTo in MP1
Easy fold.

10.) 1 Limper, SB folds: KJo in BB
If the limper is really loose/bad, I raise. Otherwise I check.

11.) UTG+1 Raises: AQo in UTG+2
Three-bet vs unknown.

12.) UTG+1 Raises: 99 in SB
Three-bet.

13.) MP3 Raises, SB Calls: A4o in BB
Easy fold.

Dead

04-09-2005, 05:16 PM

How is ATo an easy fold? It doesn't play great multi-way, but it has decent top pair strength. I think that it is definitely worth a call here. If AJo can be raised UTG, then ATo can certainly be limped from the button.

gorie

04-09-2005, 05:28 PM

hm didn't read any of the responses yet, this is what id probably do... still learning but i figure this was a good post to get myself thinking and see how i compare. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

01.) 5 limpers to you: ATo on button
i think i'd call here, or fold.
02.) MP1 Raises, 1 coldcall: JJ in CO
reraise
03.) AJs UTG
raise
04.) MP2 Raise, MP3 Reraises, JJ in CO
reraise
05.) 3 Limpers + SB; QJo in BB
check
06.) 99 UTG
usually raise, sometimes call
07.) 2 Limpers; Q9o in SB
usually fold, sometimes call
08.) Folded to you: 33 on Button
raise
09.) 1 Limper: QTo in MP1
fold
10.) 1 Limper, SB folds: KJo in BB
raise
11.) UTG+1 Raises: AQo in UTG+2
i can't think. i'd probably or call. don't think i'd reraise unless it was suited. i have a hard time folding AQo though i probably should ?! /images/graemlins/frown.gif
12.) UTG+1 Raises: 99 in SB
call, might reraise sometimes
13.) MP3 Raises, SB Calls: A4o in BB
fold. seems to risky to do anything else, if i get my A it is too likely someone else would have a higher kicker than my 4. UNLESS they were both obvious dummies then i might call.

Kumubou

04-09-2005, 05:40 PM

1) Limp.
2) 3-bet.
3) Raise. (I would just limp if this was AJo)
4) Cap it and use some forbidden arts to flop a set? I hate doing this with JJ, but I hate folding more.
5) Check. (you're out of position)
6) Raise half the time, limp the other half.
7) Complete if the SB is half the BB, dump it otherwise.
8) Raise (33 is better than two random hands, and winning the blinds would not be the worst thing that could happen.)
9) Fold.
10) Check, even though this may be weak-tight.
11) 3-bet.
12) 3-bet it half the time, call it the other half.
13) Fold.

(Now to see how ugly my answers are...)

Seems like the worst idea was 3-betting AQo from a raise UTG. I have a hard time letting go of AQo, but let's look at this: a solid player UTG is raising AA-99, AKs-ATs, KQs-KJs, AK-AQ, and KQ. That is fifteen hands, two of which are a wash, five of which have you pwned (AA, KK, QQ, AKs, AK), two of which you are behind (JJ-99), and the rest (AJs, ATs, KQs, KJs, KQ) you are ahead of. Considering hands with A and Q are less likely, and the pocket pairs come at half the rate of the other hands, this decision looks to be... completely marginal. It really comes down to reads. Here is the problem: most of the hands you beat a loose-passive player will not be raising UTG. Against a TAG this is a marginal decision, but you are probably behind a LPP raising UTG.

-K

einbert

04-09-2005, 06:07 PM

[ QUOTE ]
How is ATo an easy fold? It doesn't play great multi-way, but it has decent top pair strength. I think that it is definitely worth a call here. If AJo can be raised UTG, then ATo can certainly be limped from the button.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've found that I'm dominated here a lot of the time, and I think that would be even more true at the microlimits. I can't make a flush and I can only make one straight, and I'm up against a lot of people. If one of the blinds raises it really sucks.

Maybe I'm wrong about this, I've just never liked playing that hand in that kind of pot.

einbert

04-09-2005, 06:10 PM

I think it's a marginal decision, and against a lot of players I muck it. But against an unknown I think it merits a three-bet.

Code:<hr /><pre>Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

1,602,716,544 games 2.281 secs 702,637,678 games/sec

Board:
Dead:

equity (%) win (%) / tie (%)

Hand 1: 48.4574 % [ 00.42 00.07 ] { AQo }
Hand 2: 51.5426 % [ 00.45 00.07 ] { AA-99, AKs-ATs, KQs, AKo-AJo, KQo }
</pre><hr />
If you consider the dead blind money and your positional advantage, from a purely hot and cold equity standpoint (which of course is not completely accurate) this is a profitable play.

davelin

04-09-2005, 06:13 PM

1. Call
2. Re-raise
3. Raise
4. Open raise and re-raise? Cap probably...
5. Check
6. Raise
7. Complete
8. Raise
9. Fold
10. Probably check
11. Fold
12. Other callers? Call
13. Hmm...fold?

einbert

04-09-2005, 06:17 PM

Don't coldcall (especially first in) with AQo. You should be folding or raising in this situation.

TomBrooks

04-09-2005, 06:23 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
How is ATo an easy fold[on the button after 5 limpers]? It doesn't play great multi-way, but it has decent top pair strength. ... definitely worth a call here.

[/ QUOTE ]I've found that I'm dominated here a lot of the time, and I think that would be even more true at the microlimits. I can't make a flush and I can only make one straight, and I'm up against a lot of people. If one of the blinds raises it really sucks.

[/ QUOTE ]
ATo from late position: RAISE
-Lee Jones LLHE 2nd Ed

chipolino

04-09-2005, 06:24 PM

1. Limp
2. I'll call and see what the flop brings. But a reraise is not bad either.
3. Raise.
4. Fold.
5. Check
6. Hmmm...limp.
7. Fold
8. I'll raise the steal is worth it.
9. Fold
10. I might raise here 70% of the time in this situation, depends on the limper.
11. I know it's tough but I fold here.
12. I might call here.
13. This is an easy fold for me.

einbert

04-09-2005, 06:42 PM

[ QUOTE ]
ATo from late position: RAISE
-Lee Jones LLHE 2nd Ed

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh, well THAT settles it.

Discussion absolutely over.

Kumubou

04-09-2005, 06:45 PM

Fundamentally, this comes down to what your default for an unknown is. You seem to give them credit for being properly aggressive; I think most players at these limits are loose-passive donks until proven otherwise. I can not see your typical LP-P raising 99 UTG. Hell, I have a hard time doing it. Even though TT and up is an easy-mode raise, whreas I'll limp with 88 and less. It probably is borderline either way, as many of the 50%/50% raise/limp lines above show.

What do you figure a passive player would raise? AA? KK? AK?

Code:<hr /><pre> equity (%) win (%) / tie (%)

Hand 1: 24.4198 % [ 00.23 00.01 ] { AQo }
Hand 2: 75.5802 % [ 00.74 00.01 ] { AA-QQ, AKs, AKo }
</pre><hr />

I guess this comes down to what your put unknowns on when they raise UTG.

-K

einbert

04-09-2005, 06:49 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Fundamentally, this comes down to what your default for an unknown is. You seem to give them credit for being properly aggressive; I think most players at these limits are loose-passive donks until proven otherwise. I can not see your typical LP-P raising 99 UTG. Hell, I have a hard time doing it. Even though TT and up is an easy-mode raise, whreas I'll limp with 88 and less. It probably is borderline either way, as many of the 50%/50% raise/limp lines above show.

What do you figure a passive player would raise? AA? KK? AK?

Code:<hr /><pre> equity (%) win (%) / tie (%)

Hand 1: 24.4198 % [ 00.23 00.01 ] { AQo }
Hand 2: 75.5802 % [ 00.74 00.01 ] { AA-QQ, AKs, AKo }
</pre><hr />

I guess this comes down to what your put unknowns on when they raise UTG.

-K

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. But I think my range is pretty typical, maybe a little more aggressive than your average player but fairly close.

milesdyson

04-09-2005, 06:51 PM

[ QUOTE ]

01.) 5 limpers to you: ATo on button Call or raise depending on mood.
02.) MP1 Raises, 1 coldcall: JJ in CO 3-bet.
03.) AJs UTG Raise.
04.) MP2 Raise, MP3 Reraises, JJ in CO Coldcall all 3 and see if MP2 caps.
05.) 3 Limpers + SB; QJo in BB ??? Check.
06.) 99 UTG Raise, but limping isn't bad.
07.) 2 Limpers; Q9o in SB Meh. Fold or complete.
08.) Folded to you: 33 on Button Raise or fold. I raise.
09.) 1 Limper: QTo in MP1 Fold.
10.) 1 Limper, SB folds: KJo in BB I check. This one is interesting. 
11.) UTG+1 Raises: AQo in UTG+2 Probably fold. If his PFR% is like 12, I'd 3-bet.
12.) UTG+1 Raises: 99 in SB Call.
13.) MP3 Raises, SB Calls: A4o in BB Fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

TheHip41

04-09-2005, 07:10 PM

Preflop Decisions:

01.) 5 limpers to you: ATo on button

Fold

02.) MP1 Raises, 1 coldcall: JJ in CO

Raise

03.) AJs UTG

Raise

04.) MP2 Raise, MP3 Reraises, JJ in CO

Cap

05.) 3 Limpers + SB; QJo in BB

Check

06.) 99 UTG

Raise

07.) 2 Limpers; Q9o in SB

Fold

08.) Folded to you: 33 on Button

Fold if Blinds are loose, raise if you can steal.

09.) 1 Limper: QTo in MP1

Fold

10.) 1 Limper, SB folds: KJo in BB

Raise

11.) UTG+1 Raises: AQo in UTG+2

If Lag, re raise, if TAG, fold

12.) UTG+1 Raises: 99 in SB

Dependson the action. If he's TAG, I'd lean toward folding if the SB was 1/3 of BB. If he's loose, at least call.

13.) MP3 Raises, SB Calls: A4o in BB

Fold

The only one that's tricky at all I think is the 99 hand. Not much cash in the pot, but 99 is a good hand. Just have to play well post flop on that one.

Derek

Emmitt2222

04-09-2005, 07:24 PM

[ QUOTE ]
8) Fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

I hope thats a typo, you should be raising that almost all the time. If they are loose they will call with worse hands and you profit. If they are tight you take the blinds the majority of the time. If a TAG reraises you then you can call down or fold depending on how bad the board looks.

Entity

04-09-2005, 07:28 PM

01.) 5 limpers to you: ATo on button

Limp.

02.) MP1 Raises, 1 coldcall: JJ in CO

3-bet.

03.) AJs UTG

Raise.

04.) MP2 Raise, MP3 Reraises, JJ in CO

Sometimes call, sometimes cap, sometimes fold. Depends on reads. Usually call.

05.) 3 Limpers + SB; QJo in BB

Check.

06.) 99 UTG

Raise frequently, limp occasionally.

07.) 2 Limpers; Q9o in SB

Usually fold. Sometimes complete.

08.) Folded to you: 33 on Button

Raise.

09.) 1 Limper: QTo in MP1

Fold.

10.) 1 Limper, SB folds: KJo in BB

Depends on the limper. Sometimes raise and sometimes check.

11.) UTG+1 Raises: AQo in UTG+2

Depends. Sometimes fold and sometimes 3-bet.

12.) UTG+1 Raises: 99 in SB

Call.

13.) MP3 Raises, SB Calls: A4o in BB

Fold.

TomBrooks

04-09-2005, 09:10 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
ATo from late position: RAISE -Lee Jones LLHE 2nd Ed

[/ QUOTE ]Oh, well THAT settles it. Discussion absolutely over.

[/ QUOTE ]
Glad I was able to clear that up. /images/graemlins/smirk.gif SSH by the way, considers AT a call from LP with at least four limpers already in. Either way though, folding does not seem to be necessary.

k000k

04-09-2005, 09:59 PM

01.) 5 limpers to you: ATo on button - limp
02.) MP1 Raises, 1 coldcall: JJ in CO - 3bet
03.) AJs UTG - raise
04.) MP2 Raise, MP3 Reraises, JJ in CO - cap
05.) 3 Limpers + SB; QJo in BB - check
06.) 99 UTG - raise
07.) 2 Limpers; Q9o in SB - fold
08.) Folded to you: 33 on Button - raise
09.) 1 Limper: QTo in MP1 - fold
10.) 1 Limper, SB folds: KJo in BB - check
11.) UTG+1 Raises: AQo in UTG+2 - 3bet
12.) UTG+1 Raises: 99 in SB - call
13.) MP3 Raises, SB Calls: A4o in BB - call

[/ QUOTE ]

k000k

04-09-2005, 10:10 PM

Im the ONLY one who calls the last one?? You're getting 5:1.. Everyone says EASY fold, I'd say that seems real close, not 'easy'.. I'm sure my game's plenty leaky tho,

Also, the AQo UTG+2, I'm suprised nobody 3bets that... I'd only fold that against a total rock that I have an excellent read on. I have position on the raiser, and a 3bet will knock just about everyone out of the hand.

Edit: Oh ya, and the KJo one, I said 'check' but if the limper was loose I'd raise that..

einbert

04-09-2005, 10:12 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Im the ONLY one who calls the last one?? You're getting 5:1.. Everyone says EASY fold, I'd say that seems real close, not 'easy'.. I'm sure my game's plenty leaky tho,

Also, the AQo UTG+2, I'm suprised nobody 3bets that... I'd only fold that against a total rock that I have an excellent read on. I have position on the raiser, and a 3bet will knock just about everyone out of the hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

We're agreed on the AQo.

As for the A4o, I'll play it against some opponents, but against unknowns there is too much of a chance of reverse implied odds. If it were suited I'd call quickly, and if the kicker were about 4 or 5 notches higher I would be inclined to play it but a pair of fours is not going to win this pot often and is going to be very difficult to play postflop given your less than optimal position.

cmwck

04-09-2005, 10:30 PM

I'll give it a shot:

1. call
2. reraise
3. raise
4. call
5. check
6. raise
7. fold
8. raise
9. fold
10. check
11. reraise
12. call
13. fold

Zoelef

04-09-2005, 10:52 PM

Holy hell, I go to (non-poker) work for six hours and come back to 33 replies! I need to do this more often.

Some of these were executed confidently but just needed a double-check (99 UTG) while others just put me in a situation where I go "Bwuh?" (facing 3 cold with JJ).

Oh yeah, on 'that 3-cold with JJ' hand I had quads on the turn, but I folded pf fearing QQ-AA and consequently chances. I didn't see a showdown, dammit all. The rest of my results are in white:


01.) Call
02.) ReRaise
03.) Raise
04.) Fold
05.) Check
06.) Raise
07.) Complete
08.) Raise
09.) Fold
10.) Check
11.) Fold
12.) Reraise
13.) (I actually didn't fill this in as I did it, but it made me stop long enough to think about it, so it's here. I should probably fold.)


I'll make another reply to your constructive criticisms later, but first, I want to thank all the repliers for your thoughts/constructive criticisms.

deepsquat

04-09-2005, 11:11 PM

Preflop Decisions:
01.) 5 limpers to you: ATo on button Fold
02.) MP1 Raises, 1 coldcall: JJ in CO 3 bet
03.) AJs UTG Raise
04.) MP2 Raise, MP3 Reraises, JJ in CO fold or cap
05.) 3 Limpers + SB; QJo in BB check
06.) 99 UTG raise
07.) 2 Limpers; Q9o in SB call
08.) Folded to you: 33 on Button raise
09.) 1 Limper: QTo in MP1 raise or fold
10.) 1 Limper, SB folds: KJo in BB check
11.) UTG+1 Raises: AQo in UTG+2 fold
12.) UTG+1 Raises: 99 in SB call
13.) MP3 Raises, SB Calls: A4o in BB fold

TomBrooks

04-10-2005, 12:17 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Kook sed:
13.) MP3 Raises, SB Calls: A4o in BB - call

[/ QUOTE ]
I wouldn't pay anything to play A4o. I like to play A9o, A8o, and maybe A7o from the Small Blind for 1/2 a bet and that's suspect. I may be changing those to a SB fold after I track them some more.

A4o blooows.

itsmesteve

04-10-2005, 12:28 AM

1.call
2.raise
3. raise
4. cap
5. check
6. raise
7. raise or fold
8. depends on blinds
9. fold
10. ck
11. fold
12. call
13. fold
edit: boy was i late to the party /images/graemlins/blush.gif

AlmightyJay

04-10-2005, 12:50 AM

01.) 5 limpers to you: ATo on button

Raise

02.) MP1 Raises, 1 coldcall: JJ in CO

3-bet

03.) AJs UTG

Raise

04.) MP2 Raise, MP3 Reraises, JJ in CO

I would probably cap but this feels wrong. This might be a fold because of the likelyhood that you're playing strictly for set value.

05.) 3 Limpers + SB; QJo in BB

Check. I don't think QJo out of position against four other players is strong enough to raise.

06.) 99 UTG

Lots of people raise this, but I've never been comfortable with it. I just call.

07.) 2 Limpers; Q9o in SB

Fold

08.) Folded to you: 33 on Button

Raise, try to steal the blinds

09.) 1 Limper: QTo in MP1

Fold

10.) 1 Limper, SB folds: KJo in BB

Raise against a loose limper, check against a tight one

11.) UTG+1 Raises: AQo in UTG+2

Fold against most players

12.) UTG+1 Raises: 99 in SB

No cold-callers? I probably call

13.) MP3 Raises, SB Calls: A4o in BB

Fold

Zoelef

04-10-2005, 08:23 AM

And now, the Hero's banter:

01.) 5 limpers to you: ATo on button

Call: I'm in position and ATo is a respectable but not awesome hand, so I figure against 5 unknowns (6-7 with blinds) I probably have enough pot equity to see the flop. I'm not raising since some preflop-LP may be limping with AJo or even AQo. (I've seen an AKo limp, but not at this table)

02.) MP1 Raises, 1 coldcall: JJ in CO

3-bet: I don't think this is iffy until you hit 99.

03.) AJs UTG

Raise: We all agree that folding is not an option. In the end, I believe in raising this because it's too strong not to. ATs and AJo are iffy, but I think this stands on its own well enough.

04.) MP2 Raise, MP3 Reraises, JJ in CO

Fold: Wow, this sucks. All three options seem viable but I folded because I didn't want to go up against AA-QQ. I'm only capping with KK-AA, so I can't raise, and I *really* don't want to cold-call, let alone for 3...

05.) 3 Limpers + SB; QJo in BB

Check: Not powerful enough to raise - understood.

06.) 99 UTG

Raise: I like Shillx's line - a usually-but-not-always raise.

07.) 2 Limpers; Q9o in SB

Complete - I'm out of position but I'm getting 7-1 to complete and that should be enough to see a flop and see if I spike two pair/straight draw. This is probably pushing it, because there's a good chance someone dominates me. In retrospect, I should fold this, but I still think it's not a super-easy fold.

08.) Folded to you: 33 on Button

Raise: Blatant Blind Steal, if a blind calls I'm still a favorite against any non-22 PP.

09.) 1 Limper: QTo in MP1

Fold: I hate two-gap offsuit connectors. Just checking.

10.) 1 Limper, SB folds: KJo in BB

Check: I'm sorry for not pointing out limper was in EP. If limper was LP I would consider raising but not zealously so. I'd rather see a flop before acting like I'm ahead

11.) UTG+1 Raises: AQo in UTG+2

Fold: See #9 - I'll wait for another day. If 1 limper, then I'll raise in front.

12.) UTG+1 Raises: 99 in SB

Reraise: I wanted to isolate for HU. Thoughts?

13.) MP3 Raises, SB Calls: A4o in BB

Easy Fold, this isn't sooted.

trainslayer

04-10-2005, 09:08 AM

Nice post. I've recently been rethinking my preflop play also. Had a ~200 BB downswing recently so I got out SSHE and "really" reread preflop concepts. I also made me a handy dandy "play chart" that I keep in front of me not so much to play by as an instant feedback method to check myself when I'm not sure I did the "right" thing. Have managed to recover all but ~30 of the downswing. (Haven't read any other replies yet and started to not post my answers in order to save face if needed, but what the hell. /images/graemlins/grin.gif )

1.) Raise
2.) Reraise
3.) Raise
4.) Fold
5.) Check
6.) Raise (wasn't real sure bout this one, could call also)
7.) Fold (pot too small)
8.) Raise
9.) Fold
10.)check
11.)Call
12.)Fold
13.)Fold

Shillx

04-10-2005, 09:44 AM

08.) Folded to you: 33 on Button

Raise

Contrary to what many people say, the most dominating factor in making this decision is how much the rake is. For example, if the BB gets dropped after the flop, you would need a very good hand indeed to raise here (you would also need a very good hand to defend too so it is kinda a paradox, but against a loose player you should fold a hand like 88 imo). Even if the SB gets dropped you should fold this imo. On party where the rake will be nil unless the hand gets out of control I think raising is an acceptable play.

Brad

Chris_P

04-10-2005, 09:49 AM

1.) Fold
2.) 3-Bet
3.) Limp
4.) Cap
5.) Check
6.) Limp
7.) Fold
8.) Raise to steal, fold to a 3 bet.
9.) Fold
10.) Raise to take control and get rid of the limpers positional advantage
11.) Fold
12.) Fold
13.) Fold

if there are any glaring errors with those answers could some one point them out, cheers.

mmbt0ne

04-10-2005, 08:07 PM

<blockquote>En réponse à:<hr />
08.) Folded to you: 33 on Button

Raise

Contrary to what many people say, the most dominating factor in making this decision is how much the rake is. For example, if the BB gets dropped after the flop, you would need a very good hand indeed to raise here (you would also need a very good hand to defend too so it is kinda a paradox, but against a loose player you should fold a hand like 88 imo). Even if the SB gets dropped you should fold this imo. On party where the rake will be nil unless the hand gets out of control I think raising is an acceptable play.

Brad

[/ QUOTE ]

Fold 88 first in on the button?! Jesus, what kind of rake structure are you playing? 50% of the pot get's raked?

Sorry, but I think that's horrible. Absolutely horrible.

einbert

04-10-2005, 08:55 PM

Shillx

04-10-2005, 08:56 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
08.) Folded to you: 33 on Button

Raise

Contrary to what many people say, the most dominating factor in making this decision is how much the rake is. For example, if the BB gets dropped after the flop, you would need a very good hand indeed to raise here (you would also need a very good hand to defend too so it is kinda a paradox, but against a loose player you should fold a hand like 88 imo). Even if the SB gets dropped you should fold this imo. On party where the rake will be nil unless the hand gets out of control I think raising is an acceptable play.

Brad

[/ QUOTE ]

Fold 88 first in on the button?! Jesus, what kind of rake structure are you playing? 50% of the pot get's raked?

Sorry, but I think that's horrible. Absolutely horrible.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why is folding 88 on the button a bad play when you are up against a BB who will always call preflop? Let's say that you are playing 2/4 at a B&M and they drop the BB + SB if there is a flop (SB goes to the jackpot for example). Since the BB will always call, there is always a drop. Also assume that the BB will only play on if he has us beat after the flop. If he is behind on the flop he will fold and if he is ahead he will check/raise (and you will fold).

You are essentially risking $6 to win $2. If you get check/raised, you are risking $6 to win $0. If he has a random hand, he will outflop us roughly 20% of the time.

EV = 2*.8 - 6*.2 = + $0.40 = + .10 BB

Meh.

This comes from Abdul's site:

With a Draconian rake, like where the big blind gets dropped once the flop comes, you would need about JJ or better to open on the button!

Brad

mmbt0ne

04-10-2005, 10:24 PM

<blockquote>En réponse à:<hr />

You are essentially risking $6 to win $2. If you get check/raised, you are risking $6 to win $0. If he has a random hand, he will outflop us roughly 20% of the time.

EV = 2*.8 - 6*.2 = + $0.40 = + .10 BB

Meh.

[/ QUOTE ]

How is a +EV situation meh? That's like saying it's worthless to cap the nut flush draw on the flop with 2 callers, because you're only getting 0.0491 in +EV by both other players calling (assuming they won't fill up).

Ed Miller Says (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=1540630&page=&view=&s b=5&o=&vc=1)

99% of the time when someone says, "I try to keep my variance low," or, "I avoid making risky plays/raises to protect my bankroll," I hear, "I don't really understand limit hold 'em." It's that simple.

Maybe this is that 1% of the time. Please explain to me if it is.

einbert

04-10-2005, 10:27 PM

If Abdul says that it is -EV, it probably is. This guy really knows what he is talking about.

However, I would argue that in most online games, the rake is small enough in proportion to the stakes that openraising 22 is +EV on the button.

In a brick and mortar game, the rake is much higher, so I could see folding here.

I also want to say that I think your simplification of the postflop play (while of course a simplification) is pretty bad. You are going to make a ton of money when you flop a set and BB hits the board, usually at least 2.5BB. You are also going to make money when BB wrongly calls the turn with 6 outs, which he will do sometimes (even an expert player will make this mistake IMO). In reality, you have position therefore you are going to make less mistakes than him on average even if he is significantly better than you postflop. I think you have a hugely +EV situation postflop against an unknown (randomly selected) player.

Shillx

04-10-2005, 10:40 PM

I really wasn't trying to make a point with the 88 hand because it would be hard to find a game in which it would be correct to fold 88 on the button. It certainly wouldn't be correct in any online game (where the rake doesn't kick in until the pot gets fairly big).

What I'm really driving at is that the rake can take some +EV moves in theory and turn them into -EV moves. It would be very difficult to make open raising 88 OTB a -EV move. It would probably be fairly easy to make rasing 33 on OTB -EV in certain B&M's. So if raising 33 OTB is a thin value play with no rake, you should understand that it is probably a losing play with the rake. That is all.

Brad