Profit Potential - Convincing dad that poker isnt so bad

[raptor517]

ok, there have been quite a few posts in the last few days about convincing the parents/family/girlfriend, whatever, about playing poker and how it has some huge profit potential. so, im going to do everyone a favor and break down some numbers to make things very easy.

ok, lets assume a player is 8 tabling the 109s full time, 40 hours per week. yes, this will require some bankroll, but it will be well worth it, you will see. 8 tabling running consistently, you can get in 12 sngs per hour no sweat. that means that you can put in 480 sngs per week, 1920 per month,(4 weeks) or 24960 per year(52 weeks). thats assuming no time off or anything, so lets go ahead and knock off 3 months, which should help us with vacation time, lazyness, etc. thats 19200 per year (40 weeks). with a THREE MONTH BREAK. remember, you dont have to work weekends either, 40 hours a week.

ok, lets assume the player has a 10k bankroll. we want a very small ror here. assume the player has a 5% roi. only 5% you ask? yes, this is to show profit potential over the course of the year. your results, if you are a serious player, should be MUCH better. at 5% roi, you make 5.45 per tournament. reasonable, yes? well, thats 2616 per week, 10464 per month(4 weeks), and 136,032 per year (52 months). yes yes, but you are lazy, and want that summer, ok fine, 40 months a year gets you $104,640.

wow, that should open up a few people's eyes. yea, 136k with a 5 percent roi taking a 3 month vacation and only working during the week. are we forgetting something? of course we are /images/graemlins/wink.gif it gets better. there is a lovely thing we like to call rakeback. ah yes, rakeback. at 28% (very reasonable) you make 2.52 per tournament. thats 1209.60 per WEEK, 4838.4 per MONTH(4 weeks), and 62,899.20 per YEAR. in RAKEBACK. ding ding ding. pure profit. oh yea, but you are lazy, and want a 3 month break in the summer. ok, fine, 48,384 per year in rakeback.

you should be putting a few things together at this point. yes, working 40 hours a week, having a 3 month vacation time thrown in there, at a FIVE PERCENT ROI, you can make.. wait for it.. $153,024 per year. WOWOWOWOWOWOW. yea, thats right. try letting your parents dissaprove now. bwahahahaha

[valenzuela]

You lazy kid what if the poker boom stops, I didnt put you in one of the best schools in the country so you play poker, ur older sister is going to graduate from medicine this year on the best college in Chile, and how about ur other sister shes studying economy on the best college of the country as well, me and ur mother have masters and 20 years ago we had nothing, u owe us everything so no fcuking way u play poker!!!!!!!!!!!.
How do u answer to that?

[DonButtons]

he didnt say 40% roi, 5% is not that hard to maintain, im pretty sure thats being pretty reasonable for the sake of easy #s to compute. Im sure 10%-15% is his real roi, maybe higher.

Now move up to the 200s, with these #s., easy millions...

[nebben]

whateva... i do whaat i waaant.

[valenzuela]

lol.

[Ogre]

I'm trying to convince my dad that i can make $100+/hr 4 tabling 100+9s. Is this realistic?

[valenzuela]

Im 16, Im in the phase where my dad wants me to do my homework instead of playing poker. I think making +100 dollars in the 109s is kinda tough.

[raptor517]

no not really. if you think you have a 20%+ roi at the 109s, you are in for a surprise. 8 tabling however.. is definitely doable. holla

[Ogre]

is 20%+ RoI at the 100s pretty hard?

[Voltron87]

Yes. Very difficult.

[Ogre]

[ QUOTE ]
Im 16, Im in the phase where my dad wants me to do my homework instead of playing poker. I think making +100 dollars in the 109s is kinda tough.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm turning 16 in 2 months

[Ogre]

$80/hr?

[Maulik]

POker doesn't have to the mutually exclusive event. Many college students work fulltime to pay for school and go to school fulltime. Both can be done. There is an inherent oppurtunity cost to your time, no doubt. But if Partypoker some how collapes or something doesn't work out, you'll less willing to go to school rather than doing it during this poker boom and then falling back on real work. I like you hope this never ends, I can buy so much junk.

This boom reminds me of a friend who dropped out of college during the boom to take a $75/hr job at Kodak. He's back in school now. So bottom line here is... be ready to go back to school. But what we have that my friend at Kodak here.... we set our own hours!

[valenzuela]

lol, do u play the 109s right now??!! I hardly play the 10s.

[Shanemex]

Where do you get 28% rakeback? I made an affiliate account at party poker so I don't have to split the profit with anyone, but I only get 20% back. I'd have to 4-table the 33s continuously for 140 hours per week in order to move up to 25% /images/graemlins/frown.gif.

[Voltron87]

If you're smart enough to 8 table 109s for 100K a year you probably could be earning tons more money in a real career. Sure, 100K a year is great out of college, but you don't get an assured raise, health care, etc. Plus the boom might end and you might be looking at 70K. And there is little hope for moving up, at least when compared to a real career. Plus, playing internet poker is not much fun 40 hrs a week for the rest of your life. For me poker is a sweet part time thing, it's tons of fun, it's intellectually stimulating and I make more money at it than at anything else I could be doing right now. So it is great short term, but not long term.

The only way to convince your parents that poker is +EV is to consistently put money in the bank. You'll probably never convince them it's a good life plan, since it isn't. What would you say if you were paying money to send you kid to school but he didn't take advantage of that? I'd be pissed.

[valenzuela]

I would decide to play poker for a living if I knew that the 33s are going to be there in 10 or 20 years time, living in Chile has the major advanatge that you can live very decently ( on ur own ) with $12000 a year. Chile has the major drawback that a job like cleaning windows 12 hrs a day luckily pays $4000 a year

[valenzuela]

u sound like a 42 year-old, sadly old ppl are correct almost all the time.

[Scuba Chuck]

raptor, I'm not sure what your intentions are with regards to this post, but my intuition tells me that you're proposing to your Dad, that you prefer to postpone college.

If my intuition is correct, I think you will regret that decision. Furthermore, I'm confident you could play poker 30 hours a week, and still attend school with the minimum full time credits. Even though you're nineteen, you're going to miss some life experiences that are very special to being in college at that age. Experiences I had no interest in repeating at age 22 or 23.

When I reflect back on my college days, I wish I had poker available to me. I had unbelievable amounts of free time.

[Apathy]

[ QUOTE ]
$80/hr?

[/ QUOTE ]

Do the math... 10% roi 6 tables per hour on average (4 tabling)

= $10.90 x 6 = 65.4 + 2.43 x 6 = (65.4 + 14.58) = 79.98

So no, you can't make 80 bucks and hour!

[BradleyT]

As long as you have EVERY intention of continuing your education after the poker bubble bursts, I say milk it for all you can while it lasts.

I wish I had this opportunity when I was 20.

[Apathy]

1600 hours of poker a year is SOOO much. I don't think anyone puts in these kind of hours.

I still think you could make more money per hour then you are suggesting so the final result is about the same even if you play less hours.

[raptor517]

scub, i gottta say, yer wrong. i just made this to give some people an idea of what was VERY doable by an even average winning snger. my parents are already aware of what im doing, and while they arent neccessarily happy about it, they accept it and understand that i am doing well at it.

i understand that im missing out on a few things in college, but i DID go, and once this online thing dries up in a few years, ill probably go back. thanks for caring though, good to see some people do /images/graemlins/wink.gif holla

[raptor517]

again, im not trying to convince my parents of anything. they already know what im doing. and yes, i realize that im intelligent to do well in another career after school and a degree. however, my ambition is in creating my own company, and running my own thing. i despise authority, and could never work for anyone else that feels like he is superior to me. and also, my parents spend ZERO dollars sending me to school, was all on me thru scholarships and such. only had to pay for cost of living.

i understand that this poker thing wont last forever. i can look ahead more than 10 days and see a bit of how my future could be if i didnt have a degree. most of the things i want to do with my life do not require a degree. once this internet thing dries up, i fully intend to go back to school, if im not creating a gigantic internet corporation /images/graemlins/wink.gif holla

[FishBurger]

[ QUOTE ]
If you're smart enough to 8 table 109s for 100K a year you probably could be earning tons more money in a real career. Sure, 100K a year is great out of college, but you don't get an assured raise, health care, etc.

[/ QUOTE ]

100K is a good salary at any stage of a person's career. In general, the only way to get a salary above $100K is to work on commission, move into middle management (usually takes at least 5 years), become a technical expert, or work as a contractor or consultant. Employees are just not normally paid salaries above $100K. $200K is probably the most anyone could expect to make as an employee and then you would need to go out on your own or start your own business to make more than that.

[ QUOTE ]
Plus the boom might end and you might be looking at 70K.

[/ QUOTE ]

This would be my biggest concern if I started playing poker full-time. The money just seems too easy. Poker money today is easier to accumulate than dotcom money was during the boom. It would seem that this easy money would have to dry up sometime.

[ QUOTE ]
And there is little hope for moving up, at least when compared to a real career. Plus, playing internet poker is not much fun 40 hrs a week for the rest of your life.

[/ QUOTE ]

You sound like someone that has never had a real 40-hour per week job. Playing poker 40 hours per week is easy. You don't have a boss, you don't have deadlines, and you can more or less set your own schedule. Plus, if you have a couple of good weeks and decide you want to fly to Aruba for a week and just chill there's noone you need to clear it with other than yourself.

[ QUOTE ]
So it is great short term, but not long term.


[/ QUOTE ]

Poker is a great long-term career if you are good at it. The problem is in today's climate is tough to determine whether you're good or whether most everyone else you play against is just really bad.

I like the idea that a previous poster suggested of taking an easy load each semester and leaving plenty of time to play poker. This easy poker money probably won't be around forever and now is the time to scoop up as much of it as you can. If you're in college, consider getting on a five- or six-year plan to graduation so that you will have plenty of time for poker. I also can't fault those that decide to completely drop out -- especially if you're making $100K+ per year.

[lorinda]

How do u answer to that?

I left home and dropped out of Uni.

They _couldn't_ answer that /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Lori

[1C5]

Granny estimates 100K on party this summer. That is good news for us.

[raptor517]

oh, and all this 140k stuff, is based on FIVE PERCENT. im much higher than that. so ill make way more than 140k this year. holla

[Mr_J]

Eh. I've shown you can make six figs a year 6-8 tabling the $22s /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[Voltron87]

My advice wasn't meant to say "you're a dumb kid raptor" and it wasn't really written with you in mind either, I have no idea about your sitaution. holla. But in general... poker=/=career. That's the point. Poker= tons of short term cash.

[microbet]

To each his own, but for me college was a lot of fun, especially the first couple years when I was 17-20. It would not have been the same if I'd waited a couple years. It would still be cool, but not the same thing.

[Voltron87]

[ QUOTE ]

100K is a good salary at any stage of a person's career. In general, the only way to get a salary above $100K is to work on commission, move into middle management (usually takes at least 5 years), become a technical expert, or work as a contractor or consultant. Employees are just not normally paid salaries above $100K. $200K is probably the most anyone could expect to make as an employee and then you would need to go out on your own or start your own business to make more than that.

[/ QUOTE ]

All true. I exagerrated a bit. But when you factor in the benefits from working a job, if you are smart enough to multitable 109/215, I think it is clear you could be earning more somewhere else with a good education. Basically, 100K with no benefits isn't the land of milk and honey that most college kids think it is.

[ QUOTE ]
This would be my biggest concern if I started playing poker full-time. The money just seems too easy. Poker money today is easier to accumulate than dotcom money was during the boom. It would seem that this easy money would have to dry up sometime.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree, it's important for someone not to burn their bridges, so to speak. This is the biggest obstacle in my mind.

[ QUOTE ]
You sound like someone that has never had a real 40-hour per week job. Playing poker 40 hours per week is easy. You don't have a boss, you don't have deadlines, and you can more or less set your own schedule. Plus, if you have a couple of good weeks and decide you want to fly to Aruba for a week and just chill there's noone you need to clear it with other than yourself.

[/ QUOTE ]

Guilty. This is the biggest pro to being a pro, the set your own schedule thing. Huge +.

[ QUOTE ]
Poker is a great long-term career if you are good at it. The problem is in today's climate is tough to determine whether you're good or whether most everyone else you play against is just really bad.

I like the idea that a previous poster suggested of taking an easy load each semester and leaving plenty of time to play poker. This easy poker money probably won't be around forever and now is the time to scoop up as much of it as you can. If you're in college, consider getting on a five- or six-year plan to graduation so that you will have plenty of time for poker. I also can't fault those that decide to completely drop out -- especially if you're making $100K+ per year.

[/ QUOTE ]

All true.

These are all questions that vary from person to person... some people might be happy with 40 hours of poker a week, some people might not. Some people might find a day job abysmal, some might find a career they enjoy.

[valenzuela]

I see the future: Im 20 and Im making 30K a year playing 3 hrs a day, I live the good life, then I move up to the 1065 have a bad streak and have to return to law school /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[Blarg]

[ QUOTE ]
To each his own, but for me college was a lot of fun, especially the first couple years when I was 17-20. It would not have been the same if I'd waited a couple years. It would still be cool, but not the same thing.

[/ QUOTE ]

To me college was in large part a bitter hell because I had to work usually full time while going to it. But some of my rich friends seemed to have a very good time of it. At least when they weren't throwing up. And I guess it depends on the college, but chances are you'll never be around so many beautiful hot young available girls again in your life.

[Blarg]

[ QUOTE ]
These are all questions that vary from person to person... some people might be happy with 40 hours of poker a week, some people might not. Some people might find a day job abysmal, some might find a career they enjoy.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's for sure. People have incredibly different values and personalities and goals and needs. Sometimes it's easy to forget that whatever way you think, it's not universal.

I'm thinking about a friend of mine, not super dissimilar to some others I've known. He gets panicky being alone. He grew up as an only child in a rural area, and grew up craving companionship that he didn't all that much of until he was well into his teens. A job playing poker all day at home would have him completely bouncing off the walls and miserably unhappy.

Me, I grew up with step borthers, half brothers, adopted borthers, an adopted sister, an incredible flow of foster kids going through the family, everyone fighting for the chance to use the bathroom or to get attention, everyone sharing rooms and in each other's way all the time. There were a lot of great things about my famiily, but now as an adult on my own, quiet and even complete silence makes me feel like I'm living like a king. I glory in it, and feel incomplete without at least a bit of it each day; and when I feel like being with people, I just go out or pick up the phone, so that's no problem. Parking my ass quietly in front of the computer to play poker is no problem for me at all; I like it.

I could never tell that friend what to do to be happy, and he could never tell me. I'd never recommend playing online poker for a living to him, because even if he was great at it, he'd just wind up a rich mental patient.

[einbert]

[ QUOTE ]
You lazy kid what if the poker boom stops, I didnt put you in one of the best schools in the country so you play poker, ur older sister is going to graduate from medicine this year on the best college in Chile, and how about ur other sister shes studying economy on the best college of the country as well, me and ur mother have masters and 20 years ago we had nothing, u owe us everything so no fcuking way u play poker!!!!!!!!!!!.
How do u answer to that?

[/ QUOTE ]

Easy: "See you later, I'm moving to Japan/Texas/California/Las Vegas/wherever you want to live. I'll keep in touch."

[microbet]

You don't have to be rich if you are really really cheap. I spent one semester on a couch and paid $150 rent for the whole semester.

[valenzuela]

The best place to play online poker is Harare Zimbabwe.

[byronkincaid]

Raptor you got some crazy skillz and I've got a huge amount of respect for what you're doing. I met skipperbob in a step 2 today and I was saying to him that you make me feel old and slow when I read your posts, the number of sngs you're playing and the level you've attained so quickly is incredible.

But I've got to say that I hate posts like the one you've made here. What are you trying to achieve? All you're gonna end up doing is screwing yourself when half of 2+2 are 8 tabling the 100s/200s and suddenly it ain't so easy. I came to poker via the card counting/ advantage player route and while I am absolutely the world's worst card counter I did pick up a little knowledge along the way. Say you're making a living as a blackjack pro and you find some dealer who's flashing her hole cards at you. Would you keep it to yourself and make some money out of it or would you post her name and casino up on BJ21.com so that everyone else can go and burn out the game instead. I used to make a nice amount of money bonus hunting internet casinos. But what happened, people started posting all over the internet how easy it was and how you could get all your friends and family's credit cards and do the CON bonus 20 times and make bazillions every day. The bonus's that you can get today are nowhere near as good now as they were a few years ago. The casino's got burned and now you have bazillion x playthroughs with no BJ allowed.

Your posts are moving the game on big time. I can remember when Daliman first did the play 100 sngs in a day thing. It was a big deal then. The first person I ever saw who did a 1000 sngs in a month was Strip and I was like wow man thats almost impossible. But those numbers are nothing now cos you've come along and blown them away. If you can do it then there most definitely are gonna be vast numbers of lurkers/posters etc who think they can too. When I was at work I used to sit there with a calculator working out stuff like this- if I play x games at y ROI I'm gonna be making z times more than my boss is earning. So I left. I have great difficulty managing to play 50 a day and I'm running bad at the moment so maybe this is just a stupid rant but just in case you haven't got what I'm trying to say-YOU'RE MAKING THE GAMES HARDER DUDE. I think a lot of people will find it a lot harder than you make it seem from your posts to do what you're doing but even if just a few hundred people start trying then I think it's gonna screw up a lot of peoples's ROI. The fact of the matter is that I'm pretty crap at poker, yet for the past 8/9 months I've been able to support me my GF our kid and a big fat mortgage through playing sngs. I DON'T WANT TO HAVE TO GO BACK TO WORK MAN. Please think about us low level sng grinders before you make posts like this. Holla /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[microbet]

There's no way to stop the good info from coming out and I'm seriously not suggesting that you create some fake accounts and brag about how much money you are making by taking big chances early and getting really really tight when the blinds get high. Seriously.

[adanthar]

50 a day? Hell, even though I only 4 table (if that) I feel like I've played a lot after, like, four sets. Of course, I'd feel differently if I was playing for a living, but if all these kids try to eight table eight hours a day two things will happen:

1)My ROI will go through the roof from weird mistakes or people trying to play like they're using Aleo's guide:

2)They will burn out and quit poker in two months.

[Apathy]

[ QUOTE ]
50 a day? Hell, even though I only 4 table (if that) I feel like I've played a lot after, like, four sets. Of course, I'd feel differently if I was playing for a living, but if all these kids try to eight table eight hours a day two things will happen:

1)My ROI will go through the roof from weird mistakes or people trying to play like they're using Aleo's guide:

2)They will burn out and quit poker in two months.

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess everyone has different goals... I think that people like you who focus on roi at the expense of $/hour are not playing seriously anyways.

[teamdonkey]

raptor you'd be crazy not to do what you're doing. To your original question, if you want your parents to approve (or disapprove less), you're going to have to show them you're being responsible about it. CDs, mutual funds, a bank statement with 60k on it, whatever... knowing you have a plan and will come out of this with more than just a plasma screen tv and a meth habit will go a long way.

[adanthar]

That's half true. I play as a semi-job, but for various reasons won't have an optimal setup to eight table for at least a few months.

But the point is...for all but a few people, something like eight tabling is exhausting and makes their ROI suffer/swings much bigger. That's not a good thing if you're a college kid convinced you're invincible.

Let them come. If I'm playing for a job and take it seriously to start with I can outlast them and I'm better to start with.

[Blarg]

[ QUOTE ]
You don't have to be rich if you are really really cheap. I spent one semester on a couch and paid $150 rent for the whole semester.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not bad! When I was going to college, I was always trying to eat for a dollar a day. I got refused financial aid one year because they told me I was too poor to qualify, and I must be lying about how much I made that year.

[valenzuela]

I pity americans in Bolivia u can get a full dinner for ...gasp...30 cents.

[mistaken]

www.raketracker.com (http://www.raketracker.com)

[Blarg]

Damn. There are so many places cheaper to live in than the U.S. The only problem is not getting kidnapped in them.

[valenzuela]

Kidnapping occurs when u have very rich ppl and very poor pll, I dont think there is very rich ppl in Bolivia( U might have one or two but it isnt like for instance Brazil)

[BZ_Zorro]

with all the money you've been winning in the (how many?) months you've been playing poker. That ought to do it nicely. Sports car optional.

[Blarg]

Or when you have people of different races or ethnicities or people just making assumptions. When you're a foreigner, that usually applies to you.

Chechnya became a kind of gangster state because of all the kidnapping of Russians, and Russians weren't rich. All that matters is that they might be richer than this or that guy who wanted to kidnap them. And if they weren't, a bullet to the head would solve that problem.

Mexico has huge kidnapping gangs that have sparked protests of hundreds of thousands in the streets of Mexico City. Foreigners are a favorite target.

There have been kidnappings of foreigners in the Phillipines too, even though you don't have to have much money at all to live as an expatriate in the Philippines.

It's not necessary that you have money to be kidnapped; just that people think you do.

It's the same thing when black bums on the street pass by all the Mexican and black guys in a parking lot and head straight over to me, the white guy, to beg money. Any white guy gets hit up for cash just because of assumptions, not reality.

[BradleyT]

In the newest issue of Cool Hand Magazine (you get it when you whore a Belle Rock Casino Group site) it talks about China and their emerging economy.

It also states that over 29 MILLION people make less than $100 (US) a YEAR there. From reading the article, it's somewhat obvious why the "Chinese Internet Poker Boom" hasn't happened - those fuckers are broke! LOL.

Here's a cool link I just found - http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/rankorder/2004rank.html Although it's GDP, it would give you an idea of how much "money" a country produces so also an idea of how inexpensive it should be to live there. You can click on a country link to find out all sorts of crap about the country.

[valenzuela]

I said that huge money equities creates kidnappings( and other forms of crime)and I stand by it, but ure right that kidnapping occurs for all kinda reasons

[Supersetoy]

[ QUOTE ]
Eh. I've shown you can make six figs a year 6-8 tabling the $22s /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Really? Where?

[raptor517]

its very possible, but im not going to run through the numbers here.. holla

[raptor517]

yes yes, you are absolutely right, i am an idiot, and as soon as i made the original post i realized it. you make a bunch of very good points here, and ill do my best to not make things more difficult on us from now on /images/graemlins/wink.gif holla

[Mr_J]

I'll do em then. You'd need to 6+ table though unless you are very good or don't mind working long hours.

$22 buyin.
6tabling always running 6 = 9 sngs an hour.
40 hrs a week.
25% ROI
=$1980 before rakeback
= about $2200 after rakeback.

Working 45 weeks a year, 40 hrs a week isn't my sort of thing but that's just what can be done. So it is possible to make 6 figs at the $22s, but anyone who's that serious will be playing higher limits anyway (and probally make more with less hours).

I think the best thing this shows is that if you are a fulltime player, it doesn't take long to build a BR. If you could play 250-300 sngs a week and had 35% ROI at the $5+1s and dropped 5% ROI each time you moved up it'd take just over a month to have enough to play the $215s with a 50 buyin BR (doesn't include profits from rakeback)

[Mr_J]

"There are so many places cheaper to live in than the U.S."

Yeh just be happy. Some of us live in more expensive places than the US /images/graemlins/frown.gif (but tax-free for gambling /images/graemlins/grin.gif)

[The Yugoslavian]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Eh. I've shown you can make six figs a year 6-8 tabling the $22s /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Really? Where?

[/ QUOTE ]

I've demonstrated how one can make 6 figures in the $11s with some gorilla math myself...;).
Crazy Yugoslavian Math (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=singletable&Number=2106678 &Forum=,f22,&Words=&Searchpage=1&Limit=25&Main=210 4899&Search=true&where=bodysub&Name=18032&daterang e=1&newerval=1&newertype=w&olderval=&oldertype=&bo dyprev=#Post2106678)

It's in white...

Yugoslav