I think Bonus whoreing is giving me a bad game.

[bonaparte]

This was origionaly published in the psycology forum:


I just cleared the Empire bonus last night, but I know towards the end of the evening there was only one thing on my mine: Clearing my last 100 hands. I was tired, a little grumpy because I had just gotten most of yesterdays 33BB loss back, and now everybody was sucking out on me. I know I should have stopped playing and taken a break. What did I do??? I kept playing. One of my tables was a VPIP of like 24%. I know I should have gotten up and walked away. I want to learn how to play better poker, and part of that is getting up and leaving a bad table. NO, I stayed because every hand had a pot over the $5 minimum needed to clear the bonus. At a second table I was continuaouly being sucked out on my a person with a 77%VPIP and a aggression factor of about 3.5. I knew he was going to get into almost every pot, and I knew he would be raising the whole time through. I should have stopped right there and reread the sections in SSH and HEFAP on how to play against maniacs, as I was weak on this last night. Again I should have left the table (even though some would argue that I shouldn't have because I had a couple nice money spewers there) and adjusted by learning how to play against this maniac who was quite successful at taking all my money.

The point is I wasn't doing what I should have been doing because I wanted bonus money. I'm new to .50/1 (2600 hands) and I need to take the time to learn how to beat it before I move up again, but I have the dilemma between playing almost good poker and getting great bonuses (short term money), or actually working more on my game (long term money). Apparently the former is winning because I signed up at another site for a $200 bonus so I would have something else to clear this weekend.

Anyway has anybody else had this problem? How did you deal with it? It is hard for me to leave (bonus) money on the table for the sake of improving my game.

I think that in and of itself might make me a weak player.

[KaiShin]

[ QUOTE ]
It is hard for me to leave (bonus) money on the table for the sake of improving my game.

[/ QUOTE ]
The two are not mutually exclusive, I don't understand why you think they are. You can play good poker and improve your game while clearing bonuses. Just be perceptive, try and apply new concepts or concepts you're not too clear on, and play as if you didn't have any bonus to clear. Its not that difficult.

[MrWookie47]

If your bonus was expiring and you couldn't just sign off and try again the next day, I don't think anyone could blame you for sticking around and clearing it. Bonus clearing rates are frequently higher than typical .50/1 win rates. However, if you'll have an opportunity to finish clearing the bonus the next day or the day after, call it a day if you know your game is going south. You might still be in the black if you finish clearing right then, but it'll be more profitable short and long term if you avoid tilt, especially when you know for sure you're on it.

[Aaron W.]

[ QUOTE ]
This was origionaly published in the psycology forum:


I just cleared the Empire bonus last night, but I know towards the end of the evening there was only one thing on my mine: Clearing my last 100 hands. I was tired, a little grumpy because I had just gotten most of yesterdays 33BB loss back, and now everybody was sucking out on me. I know I should have stopped playing and taken a break. What did I do??? I kept playing. One of my tables was a VPIP of like 24%. I know I should have gotten up and walked away. I want to learn how to play better poker, and part of that is getting up and leaving a bad table. NO, I stayed because every hand had a pot over the $5 minimum needed to clear the bonus. At a second table I was continuaouly being sucked out on my a person with a 77%VPIP and a aggression factor of about 3.5. I knew he was going to get into almost every pot, and I knew he would be raising the whole time through. I should have stopped right there and reread the sections in SSH and HEFAP on how to play against maniacs, as I was weak on this last night. Again I should have left the table (even though some would argue that I shouldn't have because I had a couple nice money spewers there) and adjusted by learning how to play against this maniac who was quite successful at taking all my money.

The point is I wasn't doing what I should have been doing because I wanted bonus money. I'm new to .50/1 (2600 hands) and I need to take the time to learn how to beat it before I move up again, but I have the dilemma between playing almost good poker and getting great bonuses (short term money), or actually working more on my game (long term money). Apparently the former is winning because I signed up at another site for a $200 bonus so I would have something else to clear this weekend.

Anyway has anybody else had this problem? How did you deal with it? It is hard for me to leave (bonus) money on the table for the sake of improving my game.

I think that in and of itself might make me a weak player.

[/ QUOTE ]

Depending on your skill level and the size of the bonus, it is possible that you will be earning money even while playing poorly. If you are strictly interested in money, you should see that this is a good setup for you.

However, even though you suck at the table when you're trying to clear a bonus, it does not mean that you will suck the *NEXT* time you sit at a table to clear a bonus. If you spend time outside of poker playing to read/think about poker, you will be better equipped to raise your EV the next time you play. Read those sections now, and then next time you find yourself in that position, you'll know better what you should be doing.

[Greg J]

I think you are making a very good point. Who needs to be good when there is all this bonus money out there? I think a lot of players have this problem -- they build a roll whoring all the Party skin bonuses they can, which when taking into consideration deposit, iGM, and a few relaods, will soon be a legit 2/4 roll, then move up.

My advise: just be cognizant of this. Don't delude yrself. The fact that you are posting this means you are giving this serious thought and avioding falling into this trap. Know yr PT stats, but don't obsess over them. Just keep being realistic about yr game, and stay at .5/1 until you feel yr game has improved, no matter bit yr roll gets.

Being a good poker player means being honest with yrself. You are certainly on the right track.

[Greg J]

FYI: 1/2 clears much faster if you think you can handle it /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[grjr]

[ QUOTE ]
At a second table I was continuaouly being sucked out on my a person with a 77%VPIP and a aggression factor of about 3.5. I knew he was going to get into almost every pot, and I knew he would be raising the whole time through.

[/ QUOTE ]

This flies in the face of random card logic but when I run into a maniac/bad player who has gotten hot (even if he's only hot against me and gives all my chips to everyone else) I leave the table. I have learned that every time I stay and try to beat the hot player because he's "bad" I end up losing my butt. No more. I avoid the aggravation by going to another table where perhaps I will be the "hot player".

Likewise I never stay at a table solely because it's a "good" table--many fish seeing all the flops and building big pots. If I lose a certain amount of money at any table I leave and find another one. I probably jump around tables more than anyone here but when I find the ones where I'm the one getting the cards I'll stay there until the table breaks or I start losing. Some of my best winnings have come on tables that a good player wouldn't stay at because of the "stats".

I realize that logic says it's "all one long session" but I have dramatically reduced my losing streaks by playing this way. It's well worth it if only for my peace of mind.

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
At a second table I was continuaouly being sucked out on my a person with a 77%VPIP and a aggression factor of about 3.5. I knew he was going to get into almost every pot, and I knew he would be raising the whole time through.

[/ QUOTE ]

This flies in the face of random card logic but when I run into a maniac/bad player who has gotten hot (even if he's only hot against me and gives all my chips to everyone else) I leave the table. I have learned that every time I stay and try to beat the hot player because he's "bad" I end up losing my butt. No more. I avoid the aggravation by going to another table where perhaps I will be the "hot player".

Likewise I never stay at a table solely because it's a "good" table--many fish seeing all the flops and building big pots. If I lose a certain amount of money at any table I leave and find another one. I probably jump around tables more than anyone here but when I find the ones where I'm the one getting the cards I'll stay there until the table breaks or I start losing. Some of my best winnings have come on tables that a good player wouldn't stay at because of the "stats".

I realize that logic says it's "all one long session" but I have dramatically reduced my losing streaks by playing this way. It's well worth it if only for my peace of mind.

[/ QUOTE ]

You sound like you suffer from tilt.

[grjr]

[ QUOTE ]
You sound like you suffer from tilt.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, that is a factor but not the only one. Others can ignore the "hot and cold" factor but right or wrong I will never be able to do that.

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You sound like you suffer from tilt.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, that is a factor but not the only one. Others can ignore the "hot and cold" factor but right or wrong I will never be able to do that.

[/ QUOTE ]

Right, and that inability to ignore the "hot or cold" factor -- and you acceptance that you'll never be able to ignore it -- is tilt.

The human brain is wonderful in that it can take a seemingly random series of events and generate a pattern from observing it -- moreso when it has an emotional investment to those events.

Rob

[mmbt0ne]

Have you made a call in a small pot just so that the hand gets raked yet? THAT is the lowest possible level, and yes, many of us have done it many times.

That said, dude, you get 7 days to clear the most recent Empire bonus. If you're not playing well, don't play. There is plenty of time to clear it later.

[KaiShin]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You sound like you suffer from tilt.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, that is a factor but not the only one. Others can ignore the "hot and cold" factor but right or wrong I will never be able to do that.

[/ QUOTE ]
Just the fact that you're trying to "beat" the maniac or other non-standard opponent indicates you're approaching this the wrong way from the start. A lot of smart players underestimate luck. They think that luck has no part in poker whatsoever. That's just not true. Luck is a big part of the game, but smart players use their skills to minimize the impact that luck has on their losses, and maximize the impact it has on their wins. Eventually, if you just continue running from bad luck, you'll just have to leave the game for good.

As for tilt, you should learn how to control it. If you plan on playing poker for a long time, it will be one of the most valuable lessons you ever learn. Its even applicable in areas outside of poker. Self-discipline and all that.

[LargeCents]

[ QUOTE ]
Clearing my last 100 hands. I was tired, a little grumpy ...

[/ QUOTE ]

I think we've all been here, at least all of us "bonus hounds". It seems like every couple of weeks my back is against the wall, trying to beat some bonus deadline.

The first thing to do is weigh the pros/cons of whether the bonus is really worth it. What BB/100 do you need to justify your time? Is -2BB/100 reasonable? At least that's the type of thinking I go through, feeling that -2BB/100 is the worst I might expect if I'm extremely tired, tilting, and playing more tables at higher stakes than normal, so I can clear the bonus.

Once I decide the bonus is worth it, how do I play? Well, if I'm tilting and/or tired, it means I am playing poorly. The simplest advice is to tighten up considerably, limiting your mistakes, especially in tricky situations. Under normal on table conditions, I tend to aim for around 18% VP$IP. But when I'm dogging it, just trying to clear my bonus, it's normal to cut back to 12% VP$IP. Plus, I'll try for more straightforward postflop play, not pushing any small edges, unless I sense obvious weakness in my opponent(s). I know I'm losing potential EV in not pushing the edges, but I'm really after the bonus at this stage, rather than playing power poker. Just play breakeven poker, you can skin the fish another day, today settle for some chicken soup.

[grjr]

[ QUOTE ]
Eventually, if you just continue running from bad luck, you'll just have to leave the game for good.


[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not running from bad luck I'm running from other players' good luck in order to find my own good luck. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

I've never played in a B&M where you're tied to one table, good or bad. If there are hundreds of tables to choose from why should I stay on the ones where I'm losing money? I admit I have a temper and really hate losing but at my age I don't think that's going to change (without some serious prescription drugs anyways /images/graemlins/wink.gif ). So while it may not be best for most normal people my method works best for me and has allowed me to be a winning player.

[chopchoi]

I know it weakens my game. I play more tables than I should, sometimes play at higher limits than I should, and when you have to see the flop to get credit for the hand, my VPIP goes through the roof. I'll play Kxs or 86s from UTG.

[chopchoi]

It can also keep me from moving up in limits when I should. I'll think "Why should I take on the risk of playing higher limits, when I can clear my bonus just as fast at a lower one?"

[TomBrooks]

[ QUOTE ]
I was tired, a little grumpy, ...and now everybody was sucking out on me. I know I should have stopped playing and taken a break. ...One of my tables was a VPIP of like 24%. I know I should have gotten up and walked away. ...At a second table I was continuaouly being sucked out on my a person with a 77%VPIP and a aggression factor of about 3.5. I should have stopped right there and reread the sections in SSH and HEFAP on how to play against maniacs, as I was weak on this last night.

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't think your most important issue is clearing the bonus, I think it is trying to clear it when you are tired or in a game your not comfortable in. Playing a lot of tables is not the optimum way to play better poker anytime, but why not just get some rest and clear it the next day or next night when your feeling better? Playing when your not at your best is -EV. Playing when your very tired can be disasterous. Ask me how I know.

[grimel]

[ QUOTE ]
Have you made a call in a small pot just so that the hand gets raked yet? THAT is the lowest possible level, and yes, many of us have done it many times.

[/ QUOTE ]

Glad I'm not the only one. When I do that I start ending my session.

[grimel]

[ QUOTE ]
But when I'm dogging it, just trying to clear my bonus, it's normal to cut back to 12% VP$IP. Plus, I'll try for more straightforward postflop play, not pushing any small edges, unless I sense obvious weakness in my opponent(s). I know I'm losing potential EV in not pushing the edges, but I'm really after the bonus at this stage, rather than playing power poker. Just play breakeven poker, you can skin the fish another day, today settle for some chicken soup.

[/ QUOTE ]

When I hit "clear the bonus mode" I do something that will catch grief I'm sure - I pull a page out of Phil's "Play Poker Like the Pros" and play only certain hands & play them very straight forward like rock. I pick the lowest limit that has a pot ave over the rake min with the highest hands/hr and play on auto pilot. Blow out 300+ hands an hour until the bonus clears, then STOP playing. Goto bed and worry about poker the next day.

Sad part is I usually have a winning session playing like that at $0.25 NL.

[waynethetrain]

I find that if I'm right around break even for the bonus period, I mentally want to tighten up a bit in the last dozen hands or so because I don't want to lose of chuck of the bonus money at the end. Invariably, I get a bunch of great starting hands, play as well as I can, and wind up losing a portion of the bonus. For some reason, I mentally view each bonus period as another "event" instead of part of one giant poker game. I really don't think I change my play, but I am sure that mentally I want to. I think the bonus period impacts everyone a little - especially if they are multi-tabling.

[bottomset]

you had till at least tuesday to clear the bonus .. its a different thing entirely if it expired today or something, and was a party bonus where its all or nothing

[bonaparte]

[ QUOTE ]
If your bonus was expiring and you couldn't just sign off and try again the next day, I don't think anyone could blame you for sticking around and clearing it. Bonus clearing rates are frequently higher than typical .50/1 win rates. However, if you'll have an opportunity to finish clearing the bonus the next day or the day after, call it a day if you know your game is going south. You might still be in the black if you finish clearing right then, but it'll be more profitable short and long term if you avoid tilt, especially when you know for sure you're on it.

[/ QUOTE ]

My problem here was that I couldn't wait to finish the bonus because I wanted to get to another bonus at another site as soon as possible. That was the biggest part of my problem. Feeling I had to clear the Empire bonus as fast as possible for the sake of getting to the next bonus as fast as possible.

I thought about this.... and decided that I want to be a good medium stakes+ player long term. That being the case I am going to have to leave some bonus money on the table and walk away or else I will only be whoring, and not studying/learning hold'em.

[bonaparte]

[ QUOTE ]
If you spend time outside of poker playing to read/think about poker, you will be better equipped to raise your EV the next time you play. Read those sections now, and then next time you find yourself in that position, you'll know better what you should be doing.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are 100% correct. I made myself read the secstions were I was weak. Thanks for setting me straight.

[bonaparte]

[ QUOTE ]
I think you are making a very good point. Who needs to be good when there is all this bonus money out there? I think a lot of players have this problem -- they build a roll whoring all the Party skin bonuses they can, which when taking into consideration deposit, iGM, and a few relaods, will soon be a legit 2/4 roll, then move up.

My advise: just be cognizant of this. Don't delude yrself. The fact that you are posting this means you are giving this serious thought and avioding falling into this trap. Know yr PT stats, but don't obsess over them. Just keep being realistic about yr game, and stay at .5/1 until you feel yr game has improved, no matter bit yr roll gets.

Being a good poker player means being honest with yrself. You are certainly on the right track.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yup. I plan on using only my winning from .5/1 to move up. The bonus money is coming home to papa. I can see why it would be tempting to move up too soon, but by the time I take my bankroll to the point of $600 for 1/2 I'm sure I will be ready.

[bonaparte]

[ QUOTE ]
Luck is a big part of the game, but smart players use their skills to minimize the impact that luck has on their losses, and maximize the impact it has on their wins.

[/ QUOTE ]

Look at it this way: Skill always beats luck long term. (That's what I do)

[bonaparte]

[ QUOTE ]
It can also keep me from moving up in limits when I should. I'll think "Why should I take on the risk of playing higher limits, when I can clear my bonus just as fast at a lower one?"

[/ QUOTE ]

You should play a higher limit because you have the skill to do so, and because there is EVEN MORE MONEY TO BE MADE!!!! At least more money long term.

[thesharpie]

[ QUOTE ]
Have you made a call in a small pot just so that the hand gets raked yet? THAT is the lowest possible level, and yes, many of us have done it many times.

That said, dude, you get 7 days to clear the most recent Empire bonus. If you're not playing well, don't play. There is plenty of time to clear it later.

[/ QUOTE ]

Laughing my ass off! I've done this. /images/graemlins/crazy.gif

[bonaparte]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Have you made a call in a small pot just so that the hand gets raked yet? THAT is the lowest possible level, and yes, many of us have done it many times.

[/ QUOTE ]

Glad I'm not the only one. When I do that I start ending my session.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, but believe me I thought about it.