1-2 PL Big turn problem

[FatLoser]

Game is online $1-2 PL, maximum buyin $200.
I'm dealt AhJh in MP.
UTG opens for $6, EP call as well as myself and BB.
BB has ~220, UTG ~160, EP ~270, I've got them covered.

Four players to the flop. Flop comes As 6d 4s. Pot is $25.

Decent flop. Checked to me, didn't expect that. I bet $22. Only EP calls.

Turn comes Jc. Pot is $69.
Now I've got top two pair. Ep check and I bet $59. He checkraise allin an additional $184.

Now my problems start, I have never played with this player before, don't know what he bought in for and haven't seen any of his hands, he plays few hands and usually fold on the flop when he plays. Hardly ever raises preflop.

I don't think he has the guts to play a flushdraw like this, not a bigger ace either. After all I've bet the pot twice and I would expect to get called if I made an allin raise like that.

My conclusion is that he's slowplaying, either two pair or a set of 4s or 6s. based on his preflop call in EP I have a hard time to put him on A4 or A6, AJ is a possibility. I feel he should have bet out with AJ on the flop though since there is a spade draw out there and he should want to know where he's at.

I put him on either 44 or 66 and fold. Am I insane for folding this without a very good read on the player?

Comments?

FatLoser

[Ray Zee]

i dont know whether you were right or wrong, but how can you throw away top two pair on that board to a guy that checked twice and raised to get allin. if you fold here you have to fold every time you get checkraised on 4th street and you will run out of money before you get to make a call.
i would love to have that hand in your spot. and if i lose so be it.

[FatLoser]

Thanks for your response Ray.
I think it's a little rash to go "Gee, I've got a good hand, no way I'm gonna fold".
My follow up question to you is what hands do you put him on when you decide to call?

He called a raise preflop, called a potsized bet on the flop and check raised allin when the pot was big enough to allow it. I think I have reason to be worried.

FatLoser

I think its pretty safe that he prob. has two pair. If he had trips he would just be raising you or maybe just calling you to the river and then move all in if he wants too on the river. Moving all in on the turn doesnt do him any good. Unless he is afraid of you out drawing him. In his mind he thinks he has best hand but doesnt want you to be drawing to a another ace possibly. Unless he is a really weak player he may have trips, because all to often in a PL game they always over bet there hand and totally misplay their hand when they are way ahead. If this is not the case then I say he has two pair and the way I see it you've got him beat with AJ and your two pair. Now if theh river breaks off something bad that you don't like and you think he made the set or boat then ok, you prob. could fold but I say call the river.


TBolt76

[FatLoser]

[Ray Zee]

i can think of lots of hands a player might make this play with. like an open straight and flush draw. or ace king or ace queen. howq about him having ace suited and making two pair or the same hand as you have. or just a bluff thinking you would fold.
his play is just standard sequence for someone playing pot limit that is going with their hand whatever it is.
isnt it possible you would bet just an ace or a draw like you did here. so wpouldnt he think many other hands had a real chance of winning. you have to look from both sides.

[FatLoser]

Would you still consider this a no-brainer call if we each had, say $500 left to bet on the river or would this change your decision to raising allin or fold?

I think this hand is played consistently with a set and you have to give credence to it. Calling off $184 in a PL game with $1-2 blinds shouldn't be a black and white decision. And I disagree with Ray. I don't believe there are a lot of players who will be doing this with top pair or a straight and or flush draw. Fatloser bet the pot on two streets and now gets checkraised more or less the pot. That shows significant strength.

IF you fold here it's a massively exploitative play - based on your opponent being a pocket-pair-poker tightie. One I have a lot of sympathy with because I've played these online games a lot, and tight players tend to play pocket-pair poker and try to make sets.

But if that's the profile of your opponent why bet the turn rather than take your free card/induce a bluff.

[Eric P]

Is Jacks unreasonable here? Call a raise from UTG becuase he doesn't want to fold? Granted if he actually had jacks it would probably be wrong of him not to fold a pot bet on the flop. But it seems like he has something like AJ, JJ, 44,66, or bluff. I don't know what to do here. My other thinking is: Your pot odds surly make it right to call here. However I can't see you being ahead more than half the time (half is way more than you need for pot odd's obviously) but I don't think I would be making his move with less than AJ on the turn. Just my thoughts.
-Eric

[adam]

Okay...so this isn't the point of the original post, but just something I was musing over...

Is calling pre-flop here with AJ okay, or are you asking for trouble? If I was middle position, UTG had raised and EP had called, all before the action got to me, I think I'd assume my AJ was no good and muck it. Couple of reasons...

1. My AJ probably isn't any good - what's the worst UTG and EP are going to have between them? Better than AJ, I'd guess, especially as it's a 1/2 game.

2. There are still players to act after me (still talking pre-flop)...

a) One of them could reraise, and then I'd have to muck my hand.

b) Just one more call means that I don't have great position.

In this situation, AJ is a real trap hand, in my opinion. The only way I'd want to call is if one or more of the other players would pay me off really big if I hit a flush.

Is my thinking too tight?

[FatLoser]

I agree that AJ is risking to be in very bad shape here but I think it's a very easy hand to get away from if I don't get a flop I like. J high flop and action - I'm out. Same thing goes for A high flop. The only flop that could really cost me any money is two hearts, or even worse...two hearts with a jack or ace and I don't hit my flush. (And of course what happened now)

FatLoser