PLO/8 Newbie Hand

[Urchin]

Hold'em player trying to learn O/8. I lost a buy-in here, how fishy is my play? All comment appreciated.

Game #536923413: Omaha High/Low Pot Limit ($0.50/$1) - 2005/04/08 - 18:03:43 (EST)
Table "Gulfport" Seat 8 is the button.
Seat 1: ($157 in chips)
Hero: ($112 in chips)
Seat 3: ($21.51 in chips)
Seat 5: ($192.50 in chips)
Seat 6: ($70.75 in chips)
Seat 7: ($85 in chips)
Seat 8: ($239.50 in chips)
Seat 9: ($83.25 in chips)
Seat 10: ($46.95 in chips)
Seat 9: posts small blind $0.50
Seat 10: posts big blind $1

----- HOLE CARDS -----
dealt to Hero [Qc 8d 2d Ac]
Seat 1: calls $1
Hero: calls $1
Seat 3: folds
Seat 5: raises to $5.50
Seat 6: folds
Seat 7: folds
Seat 8: calls $5.50
Seat 9: calls $5
Seat 10: calls $4.50
Seat 1: folds
Hero: calls $4.50

----- FLOP ----- [3h 8s 9h]
Seat 9: bets $28.50
Seat 10: calls $28.50
Hero: calls $28.50
Seat 5: folds
Seat 8: calls $28.50

----- TURN ----- [3h 8s 9h][7s]
Seat 9: bets $49.25 and is all-in
Seat 10: is all-in $12.95
Hero: calls $49.25
Seat 8: raises to $98.50
Hero: is all-in $28.75
Returned uncalled bets $20.50 to en1gma

----- RIVER ----- [3h 8s 9h 7s][2s]
----- SHOW DOWN -----

Seat 8: shows [Td Js 5h Ah] (A Straight, Jack high)
Seat 9: shows [Ts Kh Jh Th] (A Straight, Jack high)
Seat 10: shows [4c 5c 2c 4s] (A Pair of Fours, Nine high)
Hero: shows [Qc 8d 2d Ac] (Two Pairs, Eights and Twos, Nine high)

Seat 8 collected $28.75 from Side pot #2
Seat 8 collected $28.75 from Side pot #2
Seat 8 collected $54.25 from Side pot #1
Seat 9 collected $27.40 from Side pot #1
Seat 8 collected $27.25 from Side pot #1
Seat 8 collected $95.50 from Main pot
Seat 9 collected $48.05 from Main pot
Seat 8 collected $47.75 from Main pot

----- SUMMARY -----
Total pot $360.70 Main pot $191.30 Side pot #1 $108.90 | Side pot #2 $57.50 | Rake $3
Board [3h 8s 9h 7s 2s]
Seat 1: folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Hero: lost
Seat 3: folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: folded on the Flop
Seat 6 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 7: folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: (button) showed [Td Js 5h Ah] and won ($282.25) with HI: A Straight, Jack high; LO: 7,5,3,2,A
Seat 9: (small blind) showed [Ts Kh Jh Th] and won ($75.45) with HI: A Straight, Jack high
Seat 10: (big blind) lost


Also, what do you think of Seat 8's play? I've played with him a few times and he's always raking it in.

[Percussion]

This wasn't a horrible call on the flop with the nut low, and seat 8 got a lucky river card, but he played it fine. He drew to the nuts in a large multi way pot, and still had a chance to get that low. This is the problem with trying to get the low in a multi way pot -- you generally want to go for the high. I would personally have folded preflop, and possibly on the flop too. If you had Ax23, that woulda been a different story.

[MarkyMark]

[ QUOTE ]
I would personally have folded preflop, and possibly on the flop too. If you had Ax23, that woulda been a different story.

[/ QUOTE ]

I truly hope you are kidding. Are you only playing Ax23 double-suited?

His hand was good enough to see the flop. True, his hand had a defect in the Qc taking away 1 of his outs and he was out of position. But it´s really a question on how you play this hand from the flop onward.

On the flop with only a nut low-draw with no protection, I´d see this hand through to the river in Limit, but would be likely to throw it away in PL if there´s any action by several people. Allthough if all people involved are capable of going to the river with A3 and 23, I *might* be seing the river, but basically, a fold on the flop is the better solution here.

But a fold pre-flop is too tight for my taste. If others are paying attention you won´t get enough action once you enter the pot.

[Ribbo]

I could have spent a lot of time replying to this post, but until you learn to raise A2 suited preflop, there isn't much point me discussing more difficult plays with you

[MarkyMark]

why escalate the pot pf out of position with the danger of opening up yourself to a possible re-raiser who wants to get his hand HU?

[Ribbo]

Because if someone has a better hand than you, you want to find out now, and not on a flop of 378. If you do not raise A2 suited then you lose a lot of value from all the chumps who are happy calling a raise preflop with A3 and in this case 2445. You lose a LOT more value by not raising, than you ever would from people with AAxx reraising and you folding. The biggest mistakes in Pot limit omaha/8 are ALWAYS made preflop in the long term.
A perfect example of this would be this hand I posted on my website http://www.ribbo.com/omaha7.htm . I raise with the worst hand from 3 people who see a flop, but if I don't raise then I can't raise with A2 either. And if I don't raise A2, then I am only raising AA. And if I am only raising AA, then everyone else will fold to the rock garden in seat 3 who has only raising 1 hand all hour.

[MarkyMark]

[ QUOTE ]
Because if someone has a better hand than you, you want to find out now, and not on a flop of 378.

[/ QUOTE ]

this assumes you are always getting raised by people having a better hand than you. But a better hand (low protection, no defect, Ace suited) may only call, so you are not necessarily gaining information.

[ QUOTE ]
The biggest mistakes in Pot limit omaha/8 are ALWAYS made preflop in the long term.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hmm hmm. Always is a very strong word here. The biggest mistakes are a combination of bad PF-play and making bad decisions on the turn. If someone has a strong post-flop game, he can allow for some mistakes pre-flop.

[ QUOTE ]
A perfect example of this would be this hand I posted on my website http://www.ribbo.com/omaha7.htm.

[/ QUOTE ]

One sentence struck me when I was reading this hand you posted: [ QUOTE ]
Lastly I reraise the pot, because I have nut low with protection, nut high, plus a second nut flush draw which is likely good if it hits. Yes we know now the ace is out there, but as I played the hand out, I couldn't assume that.

[/ QUOTE ]

The nut flush draw is alot more often out there in PLO8 than in PLO, cause it mostly takes only another 2 or 3 or even only a 4 suited with that Ace to make people play the hand. Going full throttle with a nut low with protection and K-high flush with multiway action is a matter of taste and table composition. I would often think of my K-high flush draw of being non-existant... and I am often right. The hand you posted is really interesting as it was entirely possible that you would chase out worse hands with your raise and would play against someone who could freeroll for high against you. Don´t like that play at all.

[ QUOTE ]
I raise with the worst hand from 3 people who see a flop, but if I don't raise then I can't raise with A2 either. And if I don't raise A2, then I am only raising AA. And if I am only raising AA, then everyone else will fold to the rock garden in seat 3 who has only raising 1 hand all hour.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don´t know if this holds true. I do alot of raising with High-only cards since I know some players will make that crying call on the turn chasing their low. Again, by raising A2sXX, you are only increasing stakes in my opinion and exposing yourself on later rounds if done out of position.

[Ribbo]

[ QUOTE ]

The nut flush draw is alot more often out there in PLO8 than in PLO, cause it mostly takes only another 2 or 3 or even only a 4 suited with that Ace to make people play the hand. Going full throttle with a nut low with protection and K-high flush with multiway action is a matter of taste and table composition. I would often think of my K-high flush draw of being non-existant... and I am often right. The hand you posted is really interesting as it was entirely possible that you would chase out worse hands with your raise and would play against someone who could freeroll for high against you. Don´t like that play at all.

[/ QUOTE ]
Firstly he isn't freerolling me for high if I have a nut high on the flop /images/graemlins/grin.gif and secondly I do not believe you understand how often the ace high flush draw is in play when you hold a king high flush draw. There are 48 cards apart from yours of which 36 are dealt out. So that's a 75% that the ace got dealt preflop. The chance of that Ace being suited given that you have a suited king in your hand is 55%. So the chance of the suited ace being DEALT to someone is 41%, the chance of it being played reduces this even further. I would say at an absolute maximum its a 33% chance someone has a suited ace high flush when you bet a hand with a suited king high flush draw. Also that player MUST have a 3 to go with his hand to even consider chasing the flush. When we take all this into consideration betting A3 for low plus a king high flush draw in omaha/8 is absolutely correct, before we even factor in your other 2 cards which in this case includes a 4 for a 6 high straight on the flop. Hope that helps you understand the mindset you need for winning.

[Acesover8s]

[ QUOTE ]
I could have spent a lot of time replying to this post, but until you learn to raise A2 suited preflop, there isn't much point me discussing more difficult plays with you

[/ QUOTE ]

This is terrible advice. When you raise A2s preflop everyone puts you on A2 and A3 doesn't go broke with his second nut low.

Raise your good low hands to build a pot, raise your good 2 way hands to isolate weak limpers.

[Ribbo]

If you believe that, then you're an extremely weak player. You don't care if they don't go broke or not, since they have already called preflop and given you plenty of equity. Also you make the horrible assumption that ALL you should be raising is A2, this simply isn't true. There is much a preflop raise does not tell your opponents, simply because Omaha is about 4 cards and not 2. If your game is so predictable that when you raise preflop everyone puts you on A2 and you do have A2, then I recommend you don't play Omaha/8

[MarkyMark]

[ QUOTE ]
I would say at an absolute maximum its a 33% chance someone has a suited ace high flush when you bet a hand with a suited king high flush draw.

[/ QUOTE ]

There are 2 ways how to judge wether the nut flush draw is out there. You can calculate it or you can calculate it AND look at the action. And the action tells me someone really, really likes his hand. I still don´t understand the raise on the flop. Like you said, cottontail should have folded with just the nut low, but it´s really rare to see someone laying down the nut low at a PP $100 table. I´d rather be a 51% favorite 3-way than a 60% fav HU. And given the risk that by driving out Cotton you are indeed making it heads up again the nut flush, then the raise makes even less sense. It´s only the best move when your opponents hold exactly the cards as they did in this hand and Cotton is able to fold the nut low....

Then again regarding your statement about the biggest mistakes being made pre-flop. But isn´t Cotton in your hand a good example that the biggest mistake is made on flop/turn? Also is you raising with the worst hand pre-flop a mistake on your part by your definition?

and also pls comment on what I wrote here cause it interests me:

[ QUOTE ]
Quote:

Because if someone has a better hand than you, you want to find out now, and not on a flop of 378.

this assumes you are always getting raised by people having a better hand than you. But a better hand (low protection, no defect, Ace suited) may only call, so you are not necessarily gaining information.

[/ QUOTE ]

Isn´t that exactly what Try_Me did? Smooth-call you with a better hand?

If I don´t have the mindset of a winner, then I must have the mindset of a winning loser ;-)

Edit: And if you make this much money, please pay some guy in Russia 300 bucks to make your site don´t like like it´s 1994 and I´m using CompuServe´s Mosaic browser :-)

[Ribbo]

The reason Try_Me called my bet is he can't reraise me. We have played together for a number of years online in various games and he knows I have a playable hand from a range of possible starters. He cannot reraise me from the blinds with that hand because he cannot call me if I reraise the pot as he would then know i have AA plus low at the very least. Also he wants a third player in the pot as his hand improves preflop the more callers he gets.
So far as the flop goes. I will shove that everytime given the make up of the game, because on Party Poker, people just dont fold. Maybe on Stars or Ultimate Bet someone would fold nut low no high in this instance.

[Wintermute]

This is an excellent point, IMHO. Not to hijack the thread, but I think this points out a very, very critical aspect of PLO8... namely, how often to raise PF. My PT stats say I raise between 8-10% preflop, with a VPIP of around 30-35%. I have seen a range of VPIP/PFR's that win consistently, but I know for sure that a PFR of less than 4 or so is a severe problem--that makes it very easy for folks to put you on A2 or AA every time to raise it PF. Although your sidecards are still a mystery, this knowledge alone (when certain) is valuable.

So, my belief is that a PFR of minimum 6 is essential. You have to raise some A34's in position, KK23's, hands like that which aren't the absolute strongest, but which are somewhat reasonable to raise with and will help disguise other raising hands that are truly premium.

Ribbo, others, your thoughts on this?

[elitegimp]

[ QUOTE ]

----- RIVER ----- [3h 8s 9h 7s][2s]
----- SHOW DOWN -----

Seat 10: shows [4c 5c 2c 4s] (A Pair of Fours, Nine high)
----- SUMMARY -----
Seat 10: (big blind) lost


[/ QUOTE ]

Hold 'em player here, interested in learning Omaha... doesn't Seat 10 get the low pot here? (he can play his 4c 5c for 85432, right?)

sorry, I don't want to totally derail this discussion I'm just kinda confused

[querulous]

Seat 8 has 7532A for low.