200+15 hand

[David100]

did hero make right move? Please critique the play.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t15 (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

UTG (t1055)
UTG+1 (t690)
UTG+2 (t875)
Hero (t975)
MP2 (t970)
MP3 (t960)
CO (t880)
Button (t1585)
SB (t1100)
BB (t910)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG calls t15, UTG+1 calls t15, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t45</font>, MP2 calls t45, <font color="#666666">5 folds</font>, UTG calls t30, UTG+1 calls t30.

Flop: (t202.50) Q/images/graemlins/club.gif, 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
UTG checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 bets t15</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t175</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 raises to t335</font>, UTG calls t335, UTG+1 folds, Hero folds.

Turn: (t1062.50) 3/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
UTG checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 bets t275</font>, UTG calls t275.

River: (t1612.50) 9/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font> UTG pushes all in

Final Pot: t1612.50

[citanul]

i like your play on neither street.

so i'll pick on your play preflop for right now because that's a big big problem.

every action should have a purpose: what was the purpose of your raise to 45?

citanul

[adanthar]

That small raise after 2 limpers really, really sucks.

The flop's OK, I think, but if you get at least some of these people out PF you won't have this problem.

Incidentally, this ties in with your KK hand. The fold you made there is a lot better if you raise to 125 and *then* fold to the push/push/call behind you. Not defining your hand enough is what's causing stuff like losing to AQ.

[citanul]

dammit adanthar, i was going to have him work though it and have him come to these realizations himself. now you've gone and ruined it though.

citanul

[David100]

When u said what was the point of the 45 raise pre flop i thought about it, and could not come up with a reason. That really did suck. Not enough of a raise to force out limpers. What amount would you recommend?, and say if there were no limpers.

So what is so terrible about the play on the flop?

David

[raptor517]

well, the daliman rule is 2x the number of limpers + 3x the size of the BB. sooo, in this case, it would be (15+15)x2= 60+(3x15)= 105. so if u follow HIS rule you make it 105. i think thats a little bit much. 85-90 should do the trick. holla.

[David100]

and how much without the first two limpers?

I have another AK hand which i you can flame away. will post it in another thread. I think i have a lot of leaks i need to get rid of.

David

[citanul]

if i was first in and decided to raise my AK i would raise something between 45 and 60 almost every time.

behind N limpers if i'm raising i'm raising to something on the order of 3bb + 1.5 or 2 x (N x size of limp).

the post flop play becomes much more difficult when you haven't defined your hand at all to your opponents, and haven't knocked out enough opponents. I would probably raise a little less on the flop in this situation, but as it played out, i'd be very very very confused by the action, and possibly fold, but feel bad about it. i'm not liking the action, but i can't figure out what's going on exactly. i want to put hte latest position player on a flush draw, and the first position player on some made hand Ax or better, but given that information, i can't really understand his flop action.

like adanthar said, things get easier when you play your hand properly on earlier streets. given that you played it at as close to a limp as you could, i think that you probably become much more likely to be beaten here and have to fold, unhappilly.

i'm glad that when you read my earlier post you actually thought about the reasoning you were using to raise to that number. thinking is the first step to understanding.

if i can ask, how long have you been playing the 200s (in terms of number of tournaments)?

citanul

[raptor517]

just a normal pot sized raise should suffice, sooo.. call 15, raise 40, so make it 55 total. thats pot. holla

[citanul]

[ QUOTE ]
just a normal pot sized raise should suffice, sooo.. call 15, raise 40, so make it 55 total. thats pot. holla

[/ QUOTE ]

that's chill for an unopened pot. for a pot where you are not first in, again, a pot sized bet is about right, and is roughly about where i put it with the formula i gave him. meh.

citanul

edit: reasons for raising more than just the pot behind limpers include that there are already more chips in there for them to want to chase after, AND that the pot is small relative to stacks at this poitn. for instance, behind 2 limpers at 10/15 blinds, i'll make it anywhere from 75 to 125, depending on my opponents and what i know about them, if i decide to raise.

[DonButtons]

I like playing small pots with ak early, but I see it too often when people flop an ace or king and think its the nuts and overplay it.

The raise to 45 is terrible, I rather limp with the crowd, and go for big flops.

I guess it goes with your style, but check/folding this flop which I expect you to do after seeing your posts means you shouldnt raise with it, specially to 105 this early. Rather limp, and play the blind/steal game later.

[citanul]

are you talking to me?

i didn't say anyone should check fold this flop, ever.

i daresay that you don't know my playing style from my posts here, since i infrequently get involved in the infrequent post flop discussions.

citanul

edit: i also didn't say that i would make it 105. that's hte absolute top of the range i gave for how much to raise here. the formula i gave was a "eh" guideline, though a pot sized raise which is more generic, behind limpers, is also quite fine.

[David100]

[ QUOTE ]

if i can ask, how long have you been playing the 200s (in terms of number of tournaments)?

citanul

[/ QUOTE ]

I am a newbie, over 500.

[citanul]

over 500 is not a newbie, it's just strange to see someone with that level of experience having such a basic kind of difficulty on an early rounds hand. i take it you played lots of the lower level games?

citanul

[David100]

[ QUOTE ]
over 500 is not a newbie, it's just strange to see someone with that level of experience having such a basic kind of difficulty on an early rounds hand. i take it you played lots of the lower level games?

citanul

[/ QUOTE ]

Played a few. I am [censored] at protecting my hands on the early stage and thats what i need to improve especially with AK. I don't play many hands but have often been caught out by low sets. My main advantage comes in later on in the game.

I also need to stop slow playing my Big hands, like the one i posted yesterday.

Unfortunately i cannot find the log of the other interesting AK hand i had, but i am sure i will be posting another sometime this evening.

David

[adanthar]

[ QUOTE ]
the post flop play becomes much more difficult when you haven't defined your hand at all to your opponents, and haven't knocked out enough opponents. I would probably raise a little less on the flop in this situation, but as it played out, i'd be very very very confused by the action, and possibly fold, but feel bad about it. i'm not liking the action, but i can't figure out what's going on exactly. i want to put hte latest position player on a flush draw, and the first position player on some made hand Ax or better, but given that information, i can't really understand his flop action.

[/ QUOTE ]

So you misclicked and raised to only 45 PF, right? Here's the postflop action:

Some guy checks. Monkey minbets with two cards or Ax or who cares. You raise to 175 (I'd say 150 is fine) saying 'hey guys, I have an ace'. The guy after you now makes a bet you almost have to call saying 'I don't care'. Then the guy behind you who checked overcalls.

At this point, the 3 bettor usually either has AQ or 88, or maybe AK with the K /images/graemlins/club.gif, or something else that almost definitely beats you. Once in a great while it will be a drunk dude on tilt but you would know that because you've played a bunch of hands with him already. If he's been folding a lot like everyone else he's either misread the board, flopped a monster draw (unlikely right now b/c the ace is on the board) or has you crushed.

The guy behind you is actually much harder to put on a hand than the reraiser because he can be one of two things: a monkey with a flush draw or a guy who decided this was a good time to slowplay a set (it's not.) Apparently, based on the later action, he was a monkey with a draw. No biggie, because the reraiser probably folded 2 pair or better.

[citanul]

yeah looking back at my earlier hurriedly typed post, my "possibly" should be a "usually" fold, which i think goes along with what i said i'd put the guys on. i don't know if i'd put the monkey on a flush draw that quickly, i'm much more likely to put him on a "what a bad time to slowplay 2 pair or a set" type hand.

but yeah, after raising here on the flop, probably to 150ish, maybe a tiny bit smaller or a tiny bit bigger, and having the action come back to me in that fashion, i'd be gone.

sadly, from playing a fair number of 200s lately, i can indeed say that there are often people (particularly in the night games) that allow you to have a safe push here (not that it's a safe push that you often get to make, due to being sensible, but yeah, there's bad players out there. as at the 10s, this is often a push, so at the 200s, it's infrequently a push.

citanul