20+2 Hand - Reckless or correct? [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

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number5858

04-08-2005, 05:43 PM

This was only the second hand, so I had no reads on anyone. Was my play reckless or correct? My initial preflop best was basically 4BB + 3BB more for what I guessed would be 2-3 callers. I then bet the pot when I missed on the flop because I thought it was a fairly safe flop for me. I think he made a mistake calling my bet on the flop because I did not give him the pot odds to call. On the other hand, was it reckless of me to fire second barrel and then to call his all in this early in the tournament? At the time, I thought there was about a 20% chance he was bluffing. I thought I may have the best hand. If I don't, then I may get spike an A, and I also have an OESD, so I have a lot of outs. Should I have just checked on the turn? He probably puts me all in anyways and I was prepared to call if he did. Should I have just let AQ go preflop because of my early position? I found this to be a difficult and complex hand to play.

Paradise Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t5 (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

saw flop|saw showdown

UTG (t1000.00)
UTG+1 (t990.00)
UTG+2 (t990.00)
Hero (t1000.00)
MP2 (t1000.00)
MP3 (t750.00)
CO (t1000.00)
Button (t980.00)
SB (t1290.00)
BB (t1000.00)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif. SB posts a blind of t5.
1 fold, UTG+1 calls t10, 1 fold, Hero raises to t70, 6 folds, UTG+1 calls t60.

Flop: (t155) 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif, T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
UTG+1 checks, Hero bets t160, UTG+1 calls t160.

Turn: (t475) J/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
UTG+1 checks, Hero bets t240, UTG+1 raises to t760, Hero calls t520.

River: (t1995) 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)

Final Pot: t1995
Main Pot: t1995 (t1995), between UTG+1 and Hero. > Pot won by UTG+1 (t1995).

Results in white below: 
UTG+1 has Kd Qd (straight, king high).
Hero has Qh Ac (high card, ace).
Outcome: UTG+1 wins t1995.

beeyjay

04-08-2005, 06:06 PM

I'm not sure the Buyin of this tourney but my line for the 55s and probably 109s is just call preflop here. Then when you miss completely like this just check fold it.

Some may play it more aggressively but you just played it well poorly. Its far too early to be risking this many chips, I really can't fathom you calling his allin here with A high.

nova

04-08-2005, 06:09 PM

Your position with that hand almost dictates a solid raise: if you want to play the hand bring it in solidly and go from there. UTG+1 can close the round of betting with a call with a fairly high suited connector, so as to get to the flop so that might have been the thinking.

Flop from UTG+1's point of view is an inside straight draw or 2 running cars to a flush, with two overcards. A standard continuation bet of half the pot there on your part may or may have not gotten the call (likely since a pot-sized bet was called) however sometimes a larger bet to a flop like that could mean a big draw other than a made hand (straight possibilities obviously).

Taking that 'extra' shot at the pot on the turn might be what hurt. Figure the cat has called a preflop raise, and a pot-sized bet he may have just been trying to complete the hand.

Figure that your best hope going to the river was to catch one of 4 unseen kings (villian has one of them) to make the nut straight, probably not that good of a call since that's all you are hoping for.

If you fold the hand, while your stack drops to 520 you can still fight back with the blinds being so low. Not worth blowing yourself out of a tournament in this scenario. After 2 bets, and with the possiblity of a straight out there I might have checked it and let him make the move. If he was a sophisticated player he may or may not check behind, however that's unlikely since why give a card to possibly give you an ace-high straight. Might have gone check - bet then you can fold and live to fight another day.

Shilly

04-08-2005, 06:13 PM

Alright preflop.
Bet less (more like 1/2 pot) on the flop.
Check behind on the turn. Fold to his push.

number5858

04-08-2005, 06:19 PM

Are you saying to bet 1/2 the pot on the flop to give even worse pot odds figuring that a 1/2 pot bet will still be enough to make draws fold?

david050173

04-08-2005, 07:12 PM

His call of your continuation bet was pretty bad but your play on the turn was far worse. The whole point of the first couple rounds is to survive and maybe gain some chips when you have big edges (2:1). The odds that he is bluffing with a check raise here are tiny. The play here is to check the turn and if you don't hit anything fold on the flop. You make your money in SNGs in rounds 4-6 not 1-3 in the low buy in SNGs. There is no need to try and make moves early. If they work you don't make enough chips and when they fail you lose your stack.

Shilly

04-08-2005, 07:30 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Are you saying to bet 1/2 the pot on the flop to give even worse pot odds figuring that a 1/2 pot bet will still be enough to make draws fold?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think that betting 1/2 pot as a continuation bet is a good thing to start doing as a standard. With the fast blind structures, you can't really afford to risk 1/4 of your stack as a continuation bet, and a smart player can pick up on your betting patterns and expect to trap you if you make pot-sized bets as continuation bets. Betting 1/2 pot keeps the pot smaller while still providing incorrect odds to call for draws. Obviously, you shouldn't be betting 1/2 pot against many opponents, but is a good-sized bet against one or two opponents.

Be careful though, as some will call any size of bet (even all-ins) with draws, regardless of their pot odds. Just because a guy calls a pot-sized bet doesn't mean that he's not drawing, and you might have to dump your hand if a scary card falls on a later street.

stupidsucker

04-08-2005, 07:46 PM

preflop is OK, but I prefer limp/folding or just folding this early of position preflop.

your flop bet doesnt need to be that high, but some may disagree... a 75% bet will get you the same results almost everytime against every kind of player.

Turn.... Your turn play is very neg EV. you picked up a draw, but a draw isnt very good against an oponent that called a pot size flop bet. Use your position and lead for a free card here.

--If you feel the desire to bet this draw then push. Dont give him room to go over the top like that unless you plan on folding to the reraise. In this case it wouldnt have mattered, but checking is still a much better play at the 22s in this situation.

I am stupidsucker and I aprove of this advice.

number5858

04-08-2005, 07:47 PM

I know you're right. I felt it even before the river card. So lets shift a bit. Suppose that we are in level VI and both of us are still about equal in stacks at around T900-T1000. Does your move change at this point?

zaphod

04-08-2005, 08:58 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not sure the Buyin of this tourney but my line for the 55s and probably 109s is just call preflop here. Then when you miss completely like this just check fold it.

Some may play it more aggressively but you just played it well poorly. Its far too early to be risking this many chips, I really can't fathom you calling his allin here with A high.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good advice.

david050173

04-08-2005, 09:50 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I know you're right. I felt it even before the river card. So lets shift a bit. Suppose that we are in level VI and both of us are still about equal in stacks at around T900-T1000. Does your move change at this point?

[/ QUOTE ]

At level 6 (thats 150-300right?), this is an easy all in preflop hand. You would prefer not to see an EP limper since he almost has to call but with a stack of ~3BB you can't wait. You push and hope he shows you AJ. If you were in the BB, you might think of the stop and go (call and push any flop)

nut_flush22

04-08-2005, 09:56 PM

I would have folded when your opponent raised you. He was on a draw because he was calling all of your bets, then it finally came to him, then he raised. I predicted a straight for him before I looked at the outcome. they always get it, especially on the internet! /images/graemlins/wink.gif

The Yugoslavian

04-08-2005, 10:32 PM

[ QUOTE ]
preflop is OK, but I prefer limp/folding or just folding this early of position preflop.

your flop bet doesnt need to be that high, but some may disagree... a 75% bet will get you the same results almost everytime against every kind of player.

Turn.... Your turn play is very neg EV. you picked up a draw, but a draw isnt very good against an oponent that called a pot size flop bet. Use your position and lead for a free card here.

--If you feel the desire to bet this draw then push. Dont give him room to go over the top like that unless you plan on folding to the reraise. In this case it wouldnt have mattered, but checking is still a much better play at the 22s in this situation.

I am stupidsucker and I aprove of this advice.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am Yugoslav and I too approve of this advice.

Yugoslav

number5858

04-10-2005, 09:52 AM

So I was faced with a similar situation within a day. This is hand 7 of a 10+1. At least I didn't lose all my chips. I think the call on the flop is questionable, but ok. With 1000 starting chips, I have just enough to do it.

Paradise Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t5 (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

saw flop|saw showdown

Button (t740.00)
SB (t1475.00)
BB (t990.00)
Hero (t1000.00)
UTG+1 (t1065.00)
MP1 (t1040.00)
MP2 (t2535.00)
MP3 (t690.00)
CO (t465.00)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with A/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif. SB posts a blind of t5.
Hero raises to t40, 5 folds, Button raises to t100, SB (poster) calls t95, 1 fold, Hero calls t60.

Flop: (t310) 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif (3 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, Button bets t80, SB calls t80, Hero calls t80.

Turn: (t550) 6/images/graemlins/club.gif (3 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, Button bets t80, SB calls t80, Hero folds.

River: (t710) 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
SB checks, Button bets t480, SB folds.

Final Pot: t1190
Main Pot: t710 (t710), won by Button.
Pot 2: t480 (t480), returned to Button.
Button collected 1,190, net +450 (showed hand) [ Ah Ad ] (two pair, aces and sixes)

lastchance

04-10-2005, 11:20 AM

WTF are you doing? Calling with just two overcards in NLHE SNG's is dumb especially if you're acting last and there's a caller. Also, you have better odds on the turn than you do on the flop, but you call the flop and fold the turn. Not good.

Also, preflop, I might just push my stack. There's a nice 200 chips in there, at the $20+2, KQ and AJ will call from many players. And some crappy players will show you Ax.

microbet

04-10-2005, 12:40 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
preflop is OK, but I prefer limp/folding or just folding this early of position preflop.

your flop bet doesnt need to be that high, but some may disagree... a 75% bet will get you the same results almost everytime against every kind of player.

Turn.... Your turn play is very neg EV. you picked up a draw, but a draw isnt very good against an oponent that called a pot size flop bet. Use your position and lead for a free card here.

--If you feel the desire to bet this draw then push. Dont give him room to go over the top like that unless you plan on folding to the reraise. In this case it wouldnt have mattered, but checking is still a much better play at the 22s in this situation.

I am stupidsucker and I aprove of this advice.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am Yugoslav and I too approve of this advice.

Yugoslav

[/ QUOTE ]

I am Microbet and I too approve of this advice. However, I think Yugo forgot to do this:

[ QUOTE ]
preflop is NOT OK, xxx I xxxxxx xxxxxxxxxxxx xxxxxx xx just foldxxx this early of position preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]