Hmmmm...

[JrJordan]

Overall a pretty good session, but this hand certainly threw me for a loop. MP is fairly tight-aggro preflop, but is ridiculously passive once the flop hits. Any aggression from him means you're losing. CO is very loose (VPIP around 75)
but is more aggressive than MP. Hasn't really show much down, but I've seen him bet the flop a few times when in position to take it down, whether he had a hand or not is debateable. Questions on nearly every street... PF raise? Turn action? Bet out river with top 2 and previous aggression?


Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is SB with K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, Q/images/graemlins/club.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP calls, CO calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop: (4 SB) K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 7/images/graemlins/club.gif, T/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, BB folds, MP calls, CO calls.

Turn: (3.50 BB) 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP calls, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises</font>, Hero calls, MP calls.

River: (9.50 BB) Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP folds, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises</font>, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 13.50 BB

My own thoughts and comments after some responses.

[Danenania]

I would normally raise PF in this spot. Flop and turn are good. The river I like betting out but I would 3-bet CO's raise as I think you have normally just sucked out on two-pair and even if he has a set (22 perhaps) he often won't reraise you.

[krishanleong]

Raise preflop. I think I like the rest.

Krishan

[Alobar]

If I thought the flop would get bet, I would go for a checkraise.

I really dont like your bet out on the river. This is a bread and butter check raise opportunity. MP looks likes hes chasing so I doubt you get to trap him for a bet, but if he does call, I doubt CO raises, so its the same 2 bets either way, but you will get the 2 bets more often from a c/r than you will the other way. It also has good meta game implications

You get lucky and he raises, (which I think alot of times he gets scard and just calls) I would have 3 bet him without even thinking about it. What does he have that beats you?? 22, 77??? You are going to see a worse 2 pair from this player 10 times as often as you will see a set.

[InfernoLL]

I raise preflop. Also, if you're not going to 3-bet the river, I go for a check raise so that if CO overplays a worse two pair you get an extra bet. If he's aggressive he should usually bet the river (the exception being a missed flush draw). I guess if he overplays draws a lot betting out the river is fine. I don't go for the flop check-raise as others are suggesting, but that's because I always raise preflop in this situation.

[JrJordan]

Thanks all for some good responses. Most people agree a PFR is in order, I'll add it to the list. I don't think I like trying a c/r on this flop. Most of the players except for CO are very passive, and the CO isn't expecially LAG. With a very draw happy board and a relatively small pot, I think betting out here is ok because I'd hate to see it get checked through.

I was surprised there wasn't any talk about a possible fold on the turn. If the pot wasn't so big I was very tempted to fold right then and there. i barely have odds for my 5 outs if they're clean but I figured with implied odds if I hit that I could squeeze it out. If a rag hits the river though, I'm not sure I could fold getting over 10:1 so it'd probably cost me two bets from that point. Either way, made the call.

River thoughts: MP was very passive here, which made me think there was a decent chance he was calling down with a lower K, though my first guess was still a missed draw. By betting out, I have a good chance of getting MP to call. If CO raises on top, then I got 2 bets out of MP, vs. a c/r which would get me none. Also, if CO does have a set then I'm going to vomit when I lose another BB to CO's 3-bet. I don't know, maybe I overestimated the chances of MP calling, but it seemed like a good example of way ahead or way behind , so keeping MP in gives me the best chance to win the most when ahead and lose the least when behind. Comments on any of my rambling?

Results: CO shows TT for the flopped middle set and MHING.

[Danenania]

I think you're nuts for considering a fold on the turn. I half want to 3-bet it.

[JrJordan]

Looking through PT today, I was trying to find some examples of hands where I had something similar like TPTK, got raised or c/r on the turn and felt like I could've let it go. I suppose this guy is aggressive enough that I should call the turn anyway because I might be ahead. Out of curiosity though, do you also call the river bet if a rag hits getting 10:1?

[Alobar]

[ QUOTE ]


I was surprised there wasn't any talk about a possible fold on the turn. If the pot wasn't so big I was very tempted to fold right then and there. i barely have odds for my 5 outs if they're clean but I figured with implied odds if I hit that I could squeeze it out. If a rag hits the river though, I'm not sure I could fold getting over 10:1 so it'd probably cost me two bets from that point. Either way, made the call.


[/ QUOTE ]

well results aside (TT, wow, wtf??) The reason you dont fold this turn is because a) you are still ahead a significant percentage of the time and b) given the vast looseness of this guy PF, you easily can have more than 5 outs if he does have 2 pair. If you had made 2 posts, and in one you folded this turn, and in the other, you 3 bet the turn. I would like the 3 bet better.