The worst fold you've ever seen!

[Seijuro]

I played a horrific hand here, folding TPTK on the turn when the board paired and a flush was out. I had the winning hand & would have made top set on the river. I get beat so often in this situation I give up hands more experienced players would bet so hard you would think betting was about to go out of fashion. How the hell can I improve my weak, weak game?

Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is BB with Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif. CO posts a blind of $0.5.
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, UTG+2 calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, CO (poster) calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, Hero calls, UTG+2 calls.

Flop: (8.50 SB) Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 3/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
Hero checks, UTG+2 checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 bets</font>, CO folds, Hero calls, UTG+2 calls.

Turn: (5.75 BB) 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+2 bets</font>, MP2 calls, Hero folds.

River: (7.75 BB) Q/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">UTG+2 bets</font>, MP2 calls.

Final Pot: 9.75 BB

[davelin]

[ QUOTE ]
I played a horrific hand here, folding TPTK on the turn when the board paired and a flush was out. I had the winning hand &amp; would have made top set on the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

You wouldn't have had a set. Did you "win" this hand only after you saw the river card? Don't be results-oriented.

[chaz64]

A PF raise from MP does not always mean AA or KK. Did you consider betting the flop?

[AlmightyJay]

If you're going to play this hand preflop, why would you not bet/raise on such a sweet, sweet flop for you..?

[joeski19]

Bet the flop. If your raised you can check/call the turn. Also just because 3 of one suit is on the board does not mean someone has a flush. And a paired board does not automatically mean someone has a Full house. If players see you playing weak they will raise you every time one of the above happens just to get you to fold. Don't play afraid. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[toss]

Weak tight are we? The only fold I would think of as acceptable is PF. And even then its pretty close.

[mlb3zr]

I'm not really into cold-calling w. AQo. For me, that was a big loser over about 30k hands. Maybe I suck at postflop play, but anyway, I've stopped doing it unless raiser is really LAGgy and I can 3-bet.

Since you are in the hand, I'd bet out on the flop. You've got TPTK, and you're not behind to that many hands (AA, KK, QQ, 77, and 33) so lead. Find out how villain (and everyone else) feel about their hands.

And I guess as a general rule, do not be afraid of monsters. You say you get beat a lot, but so do all of us. It sucks, but it's best just to forget about it and get to winning the next hand. I can't remember where I read this (maybe someone else knows where to find it?), but there was a great line somewhere about poker not being about minimizing your losses but maximizing your winnings. It helped me a lot to turn my thinking around like that.

[davelin]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not really into cold-calling w. AQo.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hero didn't cold-call.

[olavfo]

[ QUOTE ]
How the hell can I improve my weak, weak game?


[/ QUOTE ]
In this specific hand: By taking control. You have a favourable flop. Don't back off unless someone gives you a reason to. Bet the flop.

Generally, instead of meekly reacting to your opponents' actions you should take the initiative and force them to react to your actions. Force them to think. That's when they start doing mistakes. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

olavfo

[mlb3zr]

yup, you're right. dunno why I can't seem to read a post properly anymore.

[@bsolute_luck]

umm..isn't this a "raise or fold" situation preflop?

bet the flop or at least c/r depending on how aggressive MP2 is, but you definitely don't want this checked through giving draws a free card and with TPTK.

bet the turn. call a raise. again, what is the read of the UTG. is he loose enough to 1) limp in with a 3x, 2)bluff on a scare card like this? plus you have outs to your full house.

check/fold the river UI. since it is the Q, raise the shiz out of it.


[ QUOTE ]
I played a horrific hand here, folding TPTK on the turn when the board paired and a flush was out. I had the winning hand &amp; would have made top set on the river. I get beat so often in this situation I give up hands more experienced players would bet so hard you would think betting was about to go out of fashion. How the hell can I improve my weak, weak game?

[/ QUOTE ]

like previously suggested, don't get result-oriented.

odds and pot size will help you in your game. these 2 very important aspects will help you decide when to be aggressive and when not.

also work on watching what players play even if you're not in the hand. this will help in knowing if someone has any bluffing tendencies.

ps: i have a worse fold example. unlike you i stayed in to the river. i had trips and the board pairs on the river, giving me the nut full house....except i was so mad at this guy for sucking out like 3 hands in a row, i folded to the flush without even noticing my full house /images/graemlins/blush.gif you can bet, that won't happen again /images/graemlins/mad.gif

[Homer315]

OK, you didn't bet the flop. That's a mistake. How is it that no one has berated you for not raising the flop once you checked? That is a far worse problem I think. When reading, I was surprised you didn't bet, then almost spit my coffee out when you had the perfect opportunity to check raise and instead....CALLED!!!

[davelin]

FWIW, I'm check/raising the flop.

[olavfo]

[ QUOTE ]
FWIW, I'm check/raising the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]
Wouldn't it be better to bet out when there's a 2-flush on board? I would hate to give a free card here.

olavfo

[droolie]

The turn laydown with this board really isn't that bad man. What sucks is how you got to that fold. The thing I don't like is your lack of aggression on this flop and turn. It's a great flop for you and you've gotta bet this. A C/R would be fine here and would be the play I would probably try.


If you bet this flop the hand plays much differently. If UTG+2 wakes up on the turn and raises after you bet (and after there was some raising on the flop) I think laying this down is just fine. As it is I think the laydown is fine anyways becaus the pot is small and you might well be in third place here. You are very likely behind a flush or trips though it would be nice if you played the hand in a manner where your read would have been much stronger.

Kicking yourself when your dream card hits the river is counterproductive. You didn't have the outs to draw to four cards to boat up if you though you were behind a set or flush so forget it. This type of thinking will have you playing hunches which is very bad poker. Count your outs, your pot odds, your implied odds, your equity and the likelihood your ahead and factor in what you know about your opponents betting tendencies. If you do all that and the decision is to fold you made the right choice regardless of how the hand "would have" turned out.

[numeri]

[Replying without reading other posts - grunching]

If you're going to call AQo in the BB, you need to play aggressive on the flop. Just bet the flop. Why play AQo except for its TP potential?

[Homer315]

Cut off posted. Decent chance he'll fold to the flop bet. Assuming that PF raiser will bet out. If you bet out, you can't give a flush draw the wrong odds. I don't want a lot of people staying in on this hand with me. It's strong but not THAT strong.

[davelin]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
FWIW, I'm check/raising the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]
Wouldn't it be better to bet out when there's a 2-flush on board? I would hate to give a free card here.

olavfo

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm putting the chance that this will get checked around to about 5%. I think Villain may raise a flop bet with AK here but not 3-bet a c/r.

[droolie]

The preflop riaser will auto-bet this flop a HUGE % of the time which is why I think a C/R is better.

BTW to the OP. If you had bet the flop and the turn you probably would have had the required odds to draw to your boat and you "would have" won this pot.

[KingOtter]

You've got a made hand, so you should bet until someone proves to you otherwise. And even if someone DID have the flush on the turn, you've got outs to improve to beat it, since you have two pair.

KO

[gopnik]

I think c/r the flop could be another option since MP2 will bet anyway. What do you think guys? Forcing UTG+2 call 2 is not a bad, is it?

[Cooker]

No. No one folds a flush draw at low limit ever, so there is almost no point in even worrying about "charging" them. You cannot. They are almost always getting the right price and then some to stay in and this hand is no different. Certainly calling 1 SB in an 8.5 SB pot isn't going to cause a flush draw to fold. In an 8.5 SB pot, many hands are correct to draw against you for 1 SB (65o would be close especially if one other person stays in, any person that has a pair with another board card is correct to take one off for 1 SB). These weak draws are the hands you are looking to drive out and only a check raise into the whole field will do it. Since there is only 1 person between you and the likely bettor, I think a check raise is by far the correct play. You increase your chances to win when the weaker draws fold and make them make a clear mistake when they go ahead and call 2 cold. This is win win for you.

[chipolino]

Since I'm also learning, here's a hypothetical situation:

Hero bets the flop, MP2 raises. Should hero 3-bet here or just call?

If hero calls what's his move when the 3 /images/graemlins/spade.gif comes up? Check and fold to a bet or call the bet?

[JoeBoo]

I see MONSTERS....

Seriously, you could not have a 90% certainty that you are beat here, you have to reraise here and call if its raised back to you.

[Shillx]

The turn laydown with this board really isn't that bad man. What sucks is how you got to that fold. The thing I don't like is your lack of aggression on this flop and turn.

Good analysis.

It's a great flop for you and you've gotta bet this.

Not so good anaylsis.

A C/R would be fine here and would be the play I would probably try.

There you go. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

OP - The turn fold isn't the problem. The flop play is what stinks bad because you under represented your hand and you have no idea how good your hand actually is. Once the 3-flush comes around the board is just too scary and the pot is too small to take it to a showdown.

Brad

[Isura]

This reminded me of this River fold with AQs in huge 15/30 pot (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&amp;Board=smallholdem&amp;Number=2105090 &amp;page=2&amp;view=collapsed&amp;sb=5&amp;o=2&amp;fpart=1)