20+2, self reviewing a few hands [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

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hummusx

04-08-2005, 03:16 PM

1) I probably would fold this half the time and call this half the time, only because the blinds are absolute minimum. When I hit call, I'm telling myself '2 pair of better'.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t15 (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

saw flop|saw showdown

MP2 (t837)
MP3 (t800)
CO (t790)
Button (t775)
SB (t785)
Hero (t800)
UTG (t800)
UTG+1 (t813)
UTG+2 (t800)
MP1 (t800)

Preflop: Hero is BB with A/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
UTG raises to t30, UTG+1 calls t30, 3 folds, MP3 calls t30, 3 folds, Hero calls t15.

Flop: (t130) 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif (4 players)
Hero checks, UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, MP3 checks.

Turn: (t130) 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif (4 players)
Hero checks, UTG checks, UTG+1 bets t125, MP3 calls t125, Hero folds, UTG folds.

River: (t380) 3/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
UTG+1 checks, MP3 checks.

Final Pot: t380

Results in white below: 
UTG+1 has Ks 8c (one pair, threes).
MP3 has Qs 9d (two pair, nines and threes).
Outcome: MP3 wins t380. 

2) When I'm looking at this today I want to fold right away or if not I want to fold to the raise.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t15 (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

saw flop|saw showdown

UTG+1 (t787)
UTG+2 (t1010)
MP1 (t900)
MP2 (t760)
MP3 (t775)
Hero (t830)
Button (t745)
SB (t593)
BB (t800)
UTG (t800)

Preflop: Hero is CO with K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, J/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
4 folds, MP2 calls t15, 1 fold, Hero calls t15, Button calls t15, SB raises to t75, 1 fold, MP2 folds, Hero calls t60, Button calls t60.

Flop: (t255) 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 8/images/graemlins/club.gif, 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif (3 players)
SB bets t518 (All-In), Hero folds, Button calls t518.

Turn: (t1291) 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players, 1 all-in)

River: (t1291) 2/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: t1291

Results in white below: 
SB has Qd 4d (two pair, eights and fours).
Button has Td Th (two pair, tens and eights).
Outcome: Button wins t1291. 

3) On the flop, I'm only worried about KK and QQ, who I expect to have reraised PF, and KQ which I think could definitely be something villain would have here. Any meaningful bet that would deny odds to AJ or JT (which I also consider quite possible) is most of my stack so I just pushed. I probably would play this the same, and hope that the person holding QJ calls every time.

***** Hand History for Game 1862112990 *****
30/60 TourneyTexasHTGameTable (NL) (Tournament 11109622) - Fri Apr 08 00:33:49 EDT 2005
Table Table 14099 (Real Money) -- Seat 4 is the button
Total number of players : 9
Seat 1: pjh1243 (952)
Seat 2: AngelKat (1960)
Seat 3: D_87_ (840)
Seat 4: zippertintin (655)
Seat 5: Isabel37 (745)
Seat 6: hummusx (815)
Seat 7: POKERBOOK (828)
Seat 9: Mathaudau (465)
Seat 10: DEEEKKKS (740)
Isabel37 posts small blind (15)
hummusx posts big blind (30)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to hummusx [ As, Ad ]
POKERBOOK folds.
Mathaudau folds.
DEEEKKKS calls (30)
pjh1243 folds.
AngelKat calls (30)
D_87_ folds.
zippertintin calls (30)
Isabel37 folds.
hummusx raises (150) to 180
DEEEKKKS folds.
AngelKat folds.
zippertintin calls (150)
** Dealing Flop ** : [ Qh, 4c, Ks ]
hummusx bets (635)
hummusx is all-In.
zippertintin calls (475)
zippertintin is all-In.
** Dealing Turn ** : [ 8c ]
** Dealing River ** : [ Qd ]
Creating Main Pot with $1385 with zippertintin
Creating Side Pot 1 with $160 with hummusx
** Summary **
Main Pot: 1385 | Side Pot 1: 160
Board: [ Qh 4c Ks 8c Qd ]
pjh1243 balance 952, didn't bet (folded)
AngelKat balance 1930, lost 30 (folded)
D_87_ balance 840, didn't bet (folded)
zippertintin balance 1385, bet 655, collected 1385, net +730 [ Qs Js ] [ three of a kind, queens -- Ks,Qs,Qh,Qd,Js ]
Isabel37 balance 730, lost 15 (folded)
hummusx balance 160, bet 815, collected 160, lost -655 [ As Ad ] [ two pairs, aces and queens -- As,Ad,Ks,Qh,Qd ]
POKERBOOK balance 828, didn't bet (folded)
Mathaudau balance 465, didn't bet (folded)
DEEEKKKS balance 710, lost 30 (folded)

1C5

04-08-2005, 03:30 PM

1 and 2 both fold preflop.

3, good play just a bad beat on the last card.

nokona13

04-08-2005, 03:42 PM

1) While in the 22s it's tempting to call this sort of raise since the minraise is likely to be a monkey with K8, I'm gonna have to go ahead and reiterate the forum common wisdom that you just want to be really tight early and not bother defending your blinds. You're more likely than not going to only get yourself in trouble after the flop when you hit a 7 or an A and get what you think are weak bets, and lose to two pair or A9 or something, and the likelihood of two pair or better isn't good enough here I think. I'd fold. If they were suited and table had been playing loose post-flop, I MIGHT call and hope for the nut flush/draw

2) If the table had had limpitis pre-flop, I might try a limp here too. With good position, and assuming the blinds limp, you're getting pretty good odds to flop a strong hand, and there's always the possibility that you can just steal a pot in position on an ugly flop. Definitely fold to the re-raise. Definitely.

3) Don't post bad beats.

infinite_loop

04-08-2005, 03:58 PM

1) I don't know why you're raising UTG with A7o that early. You're not going to get more than a couple out and A7o is just too weak to do much with from EP in a thick field. This is definitely an easy fold.

2) Again, even KJs seems like a loose call here. I think you need to play it for a raise from late position here, or not at all. The blinds are so low that I think you can find better spots, even though these players are really really bad.

3) Good raise pre-flop, but possibly too much. I guess you felt like you were dealing with calling stations. On the flop, I don't like the push. You're right that KQ is the only thing you're probably worried about at this point. If he's willing to call that raise pre-flop, he's probably willing to go the distance with you. A lot of weak players will see an all-in here as you not hitting the flop, and will call if they get a piece of it. So I prefer to bet 120 or so here to isolate his hand. If he has KQ, expect him to go all-in. If he has a K or a Q, he will call or fold (probably call in this case). There's a good chance he folds to a decent turn bet after betting pre-flop and flop, otherwise he calls again. On the river, when the Q hits. You'll definitely be checking. If he pushes, most of the time you know you're beat. So pushing on the flop I think is definitely a bad play, but you'll want to distribute your bets over the flop and turn in such a way that you're getting good info on his hand but aren't killing yourself if he hits. But again, the odds are in your favor on the flop so going all-in there is +EV, but I just think that there are much better ways to play aces that early.

hummusx

04-08-2005, 04:06 PM

[ QUOTE ]
3) Don't post bad beats.

[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't post it because I lost the hand. I posted it because I wanted to know if there was an alternate way that I should have played it.

hummusx

04-08-2005, 04:09 PM

[ QUOTE ]
1) I don't know why you're raising UTG with A7o that early.

[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't raise. I was in the BB and called a miniraise.

[ QUOTE ]

A lot of weak players will see an all-in here as you not hitting the flop, and will call if they get a piece of it.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's another reason I did this. I like the idea of someone thinking I'm overbetting and calling with a second best hand.

[ QUOTE ]
So I prefer to bet 120 or so here to isolate his hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

I can see why you'd say that, but betting 120 is giving all kinds of hands odds to call. I'm thinking I'm not far enough ahead that I want to make it correct for someone to chase.

infinite_loop

04-08-2005, 04:41 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I didn't raise. I was in the BB and called a miniraise.

[/ QUOTE ]

Bleh, yeah. Misread it. In that case, it's not a bad call most of the time, but maybe a little loose. With A7o, there's still a good chance you're dominated by a better A, and this is unsuited so be rarely working with a flush draw. But it's only 15, so I guess you should be using your judgement here.

[ QUOTE ]
That's another reason I did this. I like the idea of someone thinking I'm overbetting and calling with a second best hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, my impression was that this was your aim. And if you like to play this way, double up or nothing (which is still correct), it's the perfect spot.

[ QUOTE ]
I can see why you'd say that, but betting 120 is giving all kinds of hands odds to call. I'm thinking I'm not far enough ahead that I want to make it correct for someone to chase.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, you're essentially giving him 4:1. But I would not be approaching this person as someone who's considering pot odds if they're calling a huge pre-flop raise like that (because even if they have AK or AQ which might be an okay call, you're dominating them). He's more concerned with his stack and his cards, mostly his cards. This is why I think an informational bet is the way to go here.

Not only that, but there's no flush draw possibility on board, and the only straight draw you're worried about is JT, and it's not likely he's calling pre-flop with that.

The Yugoslavian

04-08-2005, 04:47 PM

1. Easy fold pre-flop
2. Easier fold pre-flop
3. Fine

Yugoslav

hummusx

04-08-2005, 04:55 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Yes, you're essentially giving him 4:1. But I would not be approaching this person as someone who's considering pot odds if they're calling a huge pre-flop raise like that (because even if they have AK or AQ which might be an okay call, you're dominating them). He's more concerned with his stack and his cards, mostly his cards.

[/ QUOTE ]

This bring up what I think is an interesting point. According to the Fundamental Theorem of Poker, any time my opponent makes a mistake, I make money and any time my opponent makes the correct play, I lose money. What doesn't matter at all is whether my opponent makes the right play for the right reason. If he calls this for any reason at all when he's getting correct odds, it's still bad, even if he didn't call because he was getting correct odds.

So, in the situation at hand, if I knew he had JT and I knew he was a bad player who didn't know what pot odds were, I think it would be a mistake to bet 120 merely because there's a good chance he'll call and it will be the right play, thus costing me money.

raptor517

04-08-2005, 04:55 PM

1) and 2) easy fold

3) in response to infinte_loop, this raise is definitely NOT too much. its not even pot sized, and it may even be too small. holla

infinite_loop

04-08-2005, 05:00 PM

[ QUOTE ]
this raise is definitely NOT too much. its not even pot sized, and it may even be too small. holla

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, you might be interested in taking it down pre-flop with that many in the hand.

infinite_loop

04-08-2005, 05:09 PM

[ QUOTE ]
According to the Fundamental Theorem of Poker, any time my opponent makes a mistake, I make money and any time my opponent makes the correct play, I lose money.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well if you're playing this for long-term value, then you already know what you're doing and the push was the right play.

I only see three options here... trying to take it down pre-flop, the way you played it, and the approach I'm entertaining. Does anyone know which is more profitable in the long run? I guess I prefer the first or the third because getting a big chip lead early in these low buy-ins isn't that helpful.

Edit: And after thinking about it some more, I think raptor's right in that you should be betting a lot more pre-flop. Taking it down isn't a bad situation this early.