Danenania vs. Kiddo

[Danenania]

Kiddo is BB. He showed his hand at the end so I know what he had. Put us both on hands.

Party Poker 10/20 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is CO with X,X.
UTG calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, BB calls, UTG calls.

Flop: (6.50 SB) 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif, Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, UTG calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, BB calls, UTG folds.

Turn: (5.75 BB) 9/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, Hero calls.

River: (7.75 BB) 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">BB 3-bets</font>, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 12.75 BB

[MAxx]

the range is just to wide to predict...

[Danenania]

Well make a dumb guess then. I'll give the hands after breakfast and then we can discuss how it was played.

[MAxx]

... the most straightforward thing would be Q9 v High heart...

i don't think kiddo is gaybetting. i think he is trying to prevent the freebie, slightly... but more likely he has a can of whoop ass that he wants to spring on your heart draw.

[TMFS9]

You K9s, him A /images/graemlins/heart.gif6?

[naphand]

Kiddo has K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 6
Dan has 78s (no /images/graemlins/heart.gif)

[kiddo]

The guy in between us was a calling station or at least I thought so when I played this hand.

[girgy44]

AhQx
66

[Jeff W]

No way does Kiddo defend K6o here.

[Jeff W]

Dane AhQx, KhQx-KhTx
Kiddo 66 or Q9

[kiddo]

[ QUOTE ]
No way does Kiddo defend K6o here.

[/ QUOTE ]

It wasnt a stealraise, UTG had limped. If stealraise I call with K6o.

[MAxx]

come to think of it, he prolly doesnt defend q9 with a limper in there either. i missed the limper.

[Jeff W]

Q9s

[MAxx]

that would make some sense.

[MyssGuy]

[ QUOTE ]
AhQx and 66

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed.

[naphand]

Why would Dan fold the nut-flush for 1 more bet? Just because the board is paired? That is ia scenario that is unlikely to unfold IMO.

[Danenania]

Okay some semi-close guesses but we both play weirder than you guys think. Kiddo has A /images/graemlins/heart.gif2 /images/graemlins/heart.gif and I have K /images/graemlins/heart.gifK /images/graemlins/diamond.gif.

Thoughts on our play?

Edit: also note that my plan was to raise any non-A river (besides A /images/graemlins/heart.gif of course).

[aslowjoe]

Kiddo has AH and a T
Danenia has A and a JH

[SomethingClever]

I think his stop and go semi-blows, and I don't like your river fold.

[naphand]

I missed the limper as well...Bah! This changes things quite a bit.

Cannot see Dan raising anything with a 9 that he folds on the River, so he must have a Q or a big draw. He is not folding the A or K if hearts on the River IMO, which rules out KQ.

Kiddo 3-bets AQ, which means he either has the house or A/images/graemlins/heart.gif with something else, A9o is possible but looks a trouble hand PF, K/images/graemlins/heart.gifQ I don't think he 3-bets on the River. A big A/images/graemlins/heart.gif is possible but he would 3-bet PF, except AJ which clearly is not the case. Maybe Kiddo has 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif and bets Turn not wanting to let a big /images/graemlins/heart.gif draw free, hits his SF on the River and bangs away.

Dan J, J /images/graemlins/heart.gif
Kiddo 66 or 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif

EDIT: Just seen the results. Close enough.

[MAxx]

D- if kiddo threebets this flop, your prolly cap it right?

IF he comes out betting turn after your flop cap, you may just call turn lead, right?

then on river, you would probably raise his river lead right? he would still probably 3 bet river right?

looks like he may have missed 2 bets on the flop, right?

however, he didn't know how strong your hand was. but he should also probably know that he won't get paid big anyway unless you do have some kind of very strong but second best hand, right? unless thinks playing his hand this way could invite you to bite and try and bluff sometimes when you dont have strong hand.

[Jeff W]

I doubt Dane raises the J-hi flush on the river. There is no value to be had in that raise against a solid opponent.

Also, I am certain that Dane can fold the Kh on the river if not the Ah. This is an impossible spot for Kiddo to run a bluff and he certainly has at least the nut flush when he reraises.

[kiddo]

The guy in between us was, as I said, a calling station. I wanted to trap him and directly decided to bet flop and call if callingstation limped and Dan raised. Then my intention was to bet turn, again trapping this guy for another bet (with his draw?).

When callingstation folded flop after calling my first bet I was scared Dan wouldnt bet, because he could very well been raising a draw on flop so I bet again. He called and I bet river.

This wasnt HU. 3 betting flop and I would lose calling station. Checkraising turn had been ok if flop wasnt 3 hearts. When Dan only called turn I guessed he had a flushdraw, and when he raised river I 3bet.

[naphand]

I did not think he would raise K/images/graemlins/heart.gif only to fold it, seems wrong to me but I guess if he reads Kiddo as only doing this with the nut-flush then it is indeed KK. My read is pretty close, it was either JJ or KK.

No-one said Kiddo is running a bluff, where did I suggest that? No way is it a bluff, but does it have to be bluff or nuts? I guess there are not many hands Kiddo will 3-bet here that Hero beats with K/images/graemlins/heart.gif. Maybe its a good fold then.

[Jeff W]

If Kiddo 3bets here with less than the nut flush, I consider that a bluff. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[naphand]

Your point is not lost on me. I play in games where players will cap with a 9 here... /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[arkady]

I think you played it perfectly. Kiddo missed a raise on the turn with his made flush...and you *might* have raised him on the river anyway after you presumably improve. So you played it perfectly and he played it very well.

[Danenania]

The turn -&gt; river transition felt pretty tricky. I think Kiddo's turn lead indicates either a fairly weak hand or very strong hand, so I figure I'm either way ahead in which case a raise only serves to possibly fold a hand with very few outs when I could have gotten another bet out of it on the river, or I'm behind with outs in which case calling is good so I don't get 3-bet. Also there is the possibility that I'm already drawing to 2 outs which happened to be the case--raising isn't good there either.

So I decided then to call and raise any river besides a non-heart Ace to get the most out of his KQ/QJ-Q8 type hands, feeling that I could confidently fold to a 3-bet since his turn bet certainly couldn't have been a semi-bluff/bluff (IE on the river he will either be folding a weakish hand, making a crying call with a weakish hand, or 3-betting a very strong hand--no room for a 3-bet with a hand that doesn't beat me).

When the heart hits I figure I'm obligated to raise since he would be forced to payoff with many smaller flushes and also might with a hand like A9 or KQ if he thinks I'm capable of a bluff raise with worse. Then the 3-bet comes and I will seldom find an easier river fold than here, for reasons elucidated by Jeff W.

[Schneids]

I've gotta say I love the way Kiddo played it and if I were him I'd be very pissed the turn had to pair the board because he really, really deserved to get to put in 3 bets on the turn AND get a river payoff.

[MAxx]

[ QUOTE ]
This wasnt HU. 3 betting flop and I would lose calling station. Checkraising turn had been ok if flop wasnt 3 hearts. When Dan only called turn I guessed he had a flushdraw, and when he raised river I 3bet.


[/ QUOTE ]

Dammit, I overlooked the same limper again in the same thread.

Well played Kiddo... Both of ya's

D- I think your play was good against kiddo...

I would have had a tuff time not raising turn, and not calling a river 3bet. I definitely could not make your river fold against the standard monkey.

[Danenania]

[ QUOTE ]
I've gotta say I love the way Kiddo played it and if I were him I'd be very pissed the turn had to pair the board because he really, really deserved to get to put in 3 bets on the turn AND get a river payoff.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree that Kiddo played it very well given the initial presence of the loose limper but I can't think of many scenarious where I would raise the turn when it gets HU, board pairing or no, because his lead looks too much like either a.) monster or b.) bet/fold feeler bet with a weak pair. Certainly the board pair makes it easier to lay off the raise, but I think a turn raise on a blank would also be counterproductive. What do you think?

[SomethingClever]

[ QUOTE ]
I've gotta say I love the way Kiddo played it and if I were him I'd be very pissed the turn had to pair the board because he really, really deserved to get to put in 3 bets on the turn AND get a river payoff.

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't you think he should c/r that turn after stopping on the flop?

[kiddo]

[ QUOTE ]
Certainly the board pair makes it easier to lay off the raise, but I think a turn raise on a blank would also be counterproductive. What do you think?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, probably, I would normally not do this call on flop and bet turn if I didnt think I had you.

Your raise on flop could have been any 2 high cards and one of them a heart and as u said in another post, this turnbet I did is sometimes done with a pretty weak hand (or a really strong one) so u couldnt really fold unless u had nothing. Also there was a chance u had a good hand and raise turn. If turn didnt pair it would have been harder for u not to raise.

U waited a few seconds before calling turn, was hoping for a raise /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Trix]

Thought you had KhQx, but guess it plays the same.

Axh is a very likely hand here for kiddo as he probably wants to 3bet the flop with most other stuff to shut the middle guy out.

The turnbet will usually be very strong or very weak, but I guess it could be 9x, so you dont want to get 3bet, I´m just calling there too.

I´m not sure you have a riverraise, for the said reason.

I guess with clarks theorem, you may, but at best it will be close imo and will lead to a tough decision if 3bet.

[Schneids]

If I was in Kiddo's spot with QsJs or KcQs I would have played the flop and turn this way a lot of the time (though I admit default option #1 would be to checkraise the flop).

Because of this knowledge if I was in your shoes I'd probably pop Kiddo again on any safe turn card. Plus I recall Kiddo being a very aggressive player from my limited experience with him so that would make me want to punish his stop and go even more with an overpair + second nut flush draw.

I think calling the turn, from your perspective, is probably better, while then raising any safe-ish river cards (as well as flush making ones).

[helpmeout]

The only hand Kiddo wouldnt 3bet with on the flop is an Ahigh flush because he isnt afraid of freecards.

Any lower flush, TPTK, 2 pair, or trips fast plays this flop.

I dont like the river raise, its obvious Kiddo has the nut flush and also if he didnt he'd most likely try to induce a bluff on the river knowing that you probably wouldnt call without a heart.

[naphand]

I was wondering about the River 3-bet from Kiddo this morning. Unless Kiddo figures Dan calls with K/images/graemlins/heart.gif at least 1/3 times here where is the value? Although it seems crazy not to 3-bet the A flush here it is not the nuts, a straight flush exists (unlikely) or a FH (66, QQ) poss. quads but remote. He does not have the the nuts and he holds the A of suit.

How many times is that 3-bet going to get any more money in the pot without being behind? I guess it depends a lot of his read of Dan. Most people say the K-high fold is clear, but this cannot have been what Kiddo was thinking... /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[kiddo]

[ QUOTE ]
How many times is that 3-bet going to get any more money in the pot without being behind? I guess it depends a lot of his read of Dan. Most people say the K-high fold is clear, but this cannot have been what Kiddo was thinking...

[/ QUOTE ]

He only called turnbet, would have been very strange if had house, thats why I 3bet when flush hit. If I was Dan I would call this 3bet, I wouldnt trust my read enough to fold 2nd flush HU. Its easy to say, when u look at the hand now, that folding is best, but in the heat of battle I think many of those who said this is a good fold would call.

[naphand]

Indeed, there is some disagreement, but I figured he may very well call, which is why I put him on JJ and not KK/KQ.