Interesting hand.

[zaxx19]

Ultimate Bet No-Limit Hold'em, $.50 BB (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

UTG+1 ($22.75)
MP1 ($32.70)
Hero ($114.50)
MP3 ($28.70)
CO ($51.15)
Button ($48.75)
SB ($26.10)
BB ($56.45)
UTG ($38.15)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with Q/images/graemlins/club.gif, Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 raises to $3</font>, Hero calls $3, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, CO calls $3, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>.

Flop: ($9.75) 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">MP1 bets $9.75</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $19.5</font>, CO calls $19.50, MP1 calls $9.75.

Turn: ($68.25) 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">MP1 bets $10.2 (All-In)</font>, Hero calls $10.20, CO calls $10.20.

River: ($98.85) 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players, 1 all-in)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">CO bets $18.45 (All-In)</font>, Hero calls $18.45.

Final Pot: $135.75

Dude to the right of me is on ultra tilt.

Dude to the left is a call station.

THESE READS ARE VERY VERY STRONG.

Played correctly?

[mason55]

You know, I heard about this herbal ADD medicine that's really great.

PS: congrats on your round 1 win in most hated ooter

[zaxx19]

Oh, cmon I took the time to convert it and everything....

[mythrilfox]

A calling station you say?

Is he also a betting station? Because he sure as hell ain't calling in this hand.

[zaxx19]

Oh crap messed up thats the dude on my left thats the station sorry. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Its fixed now. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Brian462]

This seems fine. I would expect to win this pot most of the time, occasionally running into a bigger pair from MP1. CO could have a 7 but more likely he is a typical moron who thinks his smaller PP is good.

[zaxx19]

See what confuses me is if he think his 88 99 1010 or JJ is good doesnt he have to push that flop and try and take it down? Or at least get his money in as a strong fav??.

I have only 2 scare cards really...he would have 5 conceivably.

[Brian462]

[ QUOTE ]
See what confuses me is if he think his 88 99 1010 or JJ is good doesnt he have to push that flop and try and take it down? Or at least get his money in as a strong fav??.

I have only 2 scare cards really...he would have 5 conceivably.

[/ QUOTE ]

It sounds like he ended up having a 7(or AA, KK I guess if he's that much of a calling station). Personally I think anyone who would call this raise with any hand containing a single 7 preflop is a very unreasonable player and should be played as such. You have him read as a calling station(if I read your post correctly) so him just calling the flop with 88-JJ seems typical. On the river I don't think you can fold for a myriad of reasons which I could go on about forever.

Bottom line is that I think you are up against a weak and unreasonable player who you can't afford to fold against here. He's probably very capable of mis-valueing alot of hands on this type of board and betting what would seem to us like obvious checking hands.

[zaxx19]

Oh there is no ? of folding on the river...

What is it like 6 or 7 to 1 odds with an overpair.

Thats a check call all day.

[barongreenback]

[ QUOTE ]
Oh there is no ? of folding on the river...

What is it like 6 or 7 to 1 odds with an overpair.

Thats a check call all day.

[/ QUOTE ]
Given your reads there is little folding you can do anywhere. I would've thought it was a river bet though. A calling station isn't folding a PP there and with one player all in he's less likely to bet a weaker hand to get you to fold. Have I missed something?

[zaxx19]

MM, like I said it was a very idiosyncratic hand.

I thought by just calling the turn push and checking the river I could provoke a bet on the river which I could then either call or reraise all in.

He had been representing great strength througout the hand by simply calling and if he thought he has any decent FE he pretty much needs to push there bc by that point he might suspect I am ahead but also believe I am weak bc I didnt push the turn.


Does it make logical poker sense, no.

Was it a mistake? Perhaps it was.

It was really a feel thing.

[pottie]

I am result orientated and I want them...

[zaxx19]

The results??

[KowCiller]

zaxx19-
Want to comment on the flop min-raise? Is this standard for you? What are you hoping to accomplish in that spot?

KoW

[zaxx19]

Accomplish? Hmm take it down or continue to build a pot with likely the best hand and position a horrible opponent.

The pot was big, I figured to have the best hand considering the opponent(raiser) I like the board but QQ is susceptible.

I pot it. On UB they have that "bet the pot feature"

Im hoping for a call or reraise from the pf raiser...
Im also fine with taking down a healthy pot at that point.

Folding isnt in my mind at all bc of the opponent.(PF raiser)

He was completely an utterly tilted beyond belief and had spewed at least 200$ so far in 1 hour of horrid play.

[mason55]

[ QUOTE ]
Oh, cmon I took the time to convert it and everything....

[/ QUOTE ]

my apologies i thought this was a joke. it was 3am and i had to get up for work in 3 hours so i wasn't thinking clearly.

[tbach24]

What do you re-raise with pre-flop? I would think that doing it with QQ would be good.

[zaxx19]

This pot is preflop completely a read dependant play at stacking this donKey to my right.

OK, I posted initially with a FULL explanation of the reads in this hand but didnt do the BISON BISON conversion.

Then I did the conversion but lazily left out the reads....


PFr was a complete maniac, and completely tilted he had lost HUNDREDS already and basically we were all there to take his $$$.

I didnt reraise bc I wanted to get him deeper in the hand as he would SURELY begin spewing postflop regardless of what hit.

Ill take QQ and position on an absolute maniac anyday.Especially one who is going to autopot it every damn time.

[KowCiller]

[ QUOTE ]
Accomplish? Hmm take it down or continue to build a pot with likely the best hand and position a horrible opponent.

The pot was big, I figured to have the best hand considering the opponent(raiser) I like the board but QQ is susceptible.

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess what I was probing at is... did you feel that PFR would fold to a larger flop raise even though he was pot committed? (ie. get him in on the installment plan) The point being you would have a better shot of pushing the CO out of the hand if he had something like Axs drawing to 12 outs.

[ QUOTE ]
I pot it. On UB they have that "bet the pot feature"

[/ QUOTE ]

Eh? You never once bet the pot...

[ QUOTE ]
He was completely an utterly tilted beyond belief and had spewed at least 200$ so far in 1 hour of horrid play.

[/ QUOTE ]

If that's the case, why not re-raise preflop and get this guy heads up? If CO knows this too, he can call with a wide range of hands knowing that PFR will pay off big.

KoW

[zaxx19]

[ QUOTE ]
If that's the case, why not re-raise preflop

[/ QUOTE ]

I dont want to define my hand yet. Thats the whole point of cold calling with QQ here. Im giving away too much in the way of expectation especially since he is guaranteed to pot it on the flop.

[ QUOTE ]
Eh? You never once bet the pot...


[/ QUOTE ]

Not in the PL sense I didnt but on the flop I think i doubled his pot bet.....hence bet the pot.

[ QUOTE ]
Flop: ($9.75) 7, 7, 3 (3 players)
MP1 bets $9.75, Hero raises to $19.5

[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If that's the case, why not re-raise preflop and get this guy heads up? If CO knows this too, he can call with a wide range of hands knowing that PFR will pay off big.


[/ QUOTE ]

It is a good point....and the CO is what makes this hand problematic and dangerous, but at that point I was willing to take larger risks than usualy to extract cash from this guy.

I mean he was SUICIDAL TILTED.

[Ghazban]

[ QUOTE ]
Not in the PL sense I didnt but on the flop I think i doubled his pot bet.....hence bet the pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not trying to be a jackass, but minraising a pot bet is nothing like betting the pot. Betting the pot would be quadrupling his pot bet.

[zaxx19]

I BET WHAT WAS IN THE POT.

THATS IT.

If I was describing to you a hand orally and said, "I had AA and raised it 5BB and only one dude called. The flop came 24j 2 diamonds , so I bet the pot to drive out the draws bc he liked SC.."

Would you assume I meant 11.5BB or 22BB(assume no limpers)?

[mason55]

zaxx - How was he responding to being reraised? Was he the kind of maniac to just keep pushing even if you fight back or was he a semi-intelligent, i'll back down when facing aggression maniac?

I think a case can be made for reraising preflop if you think there's any chance he might continue his aggression. CO is obviously getting the right price to stay in with many many hands that could catch some garbage on the flop. You really want to isolate with maniac.

If he's like any maniac i've ever played with you might have to check behind on the flop since you're in position to get him to fire on the turn if you reraise before the flop, but I really think I would want to isolate this hand with the maniac. If I only take down a small pot this time, so be it, there are plenty of other tilting maniacs out there just waiting to give me money.

In this hand, I would be very very worried when CO cold called your raise. I would seriously start to put him on a garbage hand that connected or KK or AA. Since he's not firing back at you or the maniac after you guys both showed you're committed to your hands, I'm thinking he's got to have a 7 in his hand if he's anywhere near a decent player. If the stacks were reversed and the CO had the small stack I would probably stay in, but when he cold calls my raise I think I'm done with the hand.

The only way I can see you beating CO is if he has 88-JJ and thinks you're trying to isolate the maniac with your supposed overcards. The only other way you're still winning this hand after the flop is if he's REALLY REALLY bad.

Edit: I think I messed up here. Which one was the maniac?

[Ghazban]

With respect to the hand, CO must have you crushed unless he's absolutely terrible. He flat calls after you minraise a pot bet on the flop, then calls off half his chips on the turn and the rest on the river. If he's doing this with a worse hand, he's one of the worst players I've ever seen.

[KowCiller]

[ QUOTE ]
I dont want to define my hand yet. Thats the whole point of cold calling with QQ here

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
I mean he was SUICIDAL TILTED.

[/ QUOTE ]

I mean... you were there, I wasn't... but do "SUICIDAL TILTED" players bother putting you on a range of hands when you re-raise him preflop or do they just get in a huff and refuse to be pushed around? /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[ QUOTE ]
Not in the PL sense I didnt but on the flop I think i doubled his pot bet

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe it's just my lack of understanding, but I didn't realize there was any other formula for betting the pot than in the PL sense.

[ QUOTE ]
CO is what makes this hand problematic and dangerous, but at that point I was willing to take larger risks than usualy to extract cash from this guy

[/ QUOTE ]

In that case, ni han. I do this sometimes too. Hope it worked out for you on this one.

KoW

[Ghazban]

[ QUOTE ]
I BET WHAT WAS IN THE POT.

[/ QUOTE ]

No you didn't. You bet what was in the pot before any action had occurred that round. I'm not trying to be an anal-retentive nit here, but a term like "betting the pot" has a commonly understood definition that is different from the way you are using it.

[mason55]

[ QUOTE ]
With respect to the hand, CO must have you crushed unless he's absolutely terrible. He flat calls after you minraise a pot bet on the flop, then calls off half his chips on the turn and the rest on the river. If he's doing this with a worse hand, he's one of the worst players I've ever seen.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree, I don't see how everyone else in this thread says they can't find a fold anywhere. If zaxx is ahead of CO then CO is awful awful awful.

[mason55]

[ QUOTE ]
I BET WHAT WAS IN THE POT.

THATS IT.

If I was describing to you a hand orally and said, "I had AA and raised it 5BB and only one dude called. The flop came 24j 2 diamonds , so I bet the pot to drive out the draws bc he liked SC.."

Would you assume I meant 11.5BB or 22BB(assume no limpers)?

[/ QUOTE ]

$9.75 in pot + $9.75 for his bet + $9.75 for your call means pot is $29.25. Then you bet another $29.25 making your bet ~$60. That is raising the pot.

[zaxx19]

[ QUOTE ]
With respect to the hand, CO must have you crushed unless he's absolutely terrible. He flat calls after you minraise a pot bet on the flop, then calls off half his chips on the turn and the rest on the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thats what I thought after the turn(i.e. im probably toast) but the pot just got too damn big and like I said it was a race to get the PFR's $$$.

PLUS [ QUOTE ]
CO is a call station

[/ QUOTE ]

He had recently lost 100$ also. See I included this in my initial pot then got lazy. Really my fault. /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[zaxx19]

Basically (and its my fault I didnt include this in post)

This is totally and completely a read dependant play.

Both these players are on tilt.

One, the PFR who is completely gone. I want to trap him for a big pot so I smoothcall preflop. If an unfavorable flop comes...well not much in and ill just muck it.

The other was calling down a ton, and had been spewng alot of chips(though not close to the amount the pfr was)

Given those reads by the time it got to the turn I feel Pot Stuck if the board stayed safe, it did.

Im either ahead or way behind so Im not forcing a call station out of the pot...even if I tried his pot odds are too bloated if he has a real draw to force him out anyway.

Im commited to the hand completely and dont want to scare off inferior holdings.\

Is this "typical of my play? No

Is it a situation we all face at times when riskier plays must be taken to extract $$ from insane players?

I think the risks are EV+ many times and Im willing to incur the variance to go after that easy money.

[zaxx19]

I hope the above post makes some sense...

Im super tired and about to crash but I do think this is a VERY interesting and idiosyncratic hand to review.

To those who would opt for a fold on the turn I submit this:

BY the time it gets to me the pot is ~$75.50

The CO has 28.50 left. That is almost 4:1 with an overpair and I can discount the chance of the PFR being ahead almost ever.

I also have 2 outs pretty much no matter what, thats an extra ~5%

I think im completely pot stuck here especially considering the "call station read" on the CO and the fact he could be slightly tilting himself.

[Ghazban]

In light of all that, why did you raise the flop? If you just call, you are still playing a big pot against two opponents with likely inferior holdings and will still probably end up all-in by the river. CO probably folds some of the hands you want him to call with when you raise here.

[zaxx19]

[ QUOTE ]
Accomplish? Hmm take it down or continue to build a pot with likely the best hand and position a horrible opponent.

The pot was big, I figured to have the best hand considering the opponent(raiser) I like the board but QQ is susceptible.


[/ QUOTE ]

Ghazban remember I have a very good hand but there are still very many cards I hate to see come off on the turn.

I was ambivalent about taking it down there espeicially since the CO was lurking and more of an unknown than the PFR.

Remember by the time I raised the pot was already like 38 BB thats not a horrible take.
That and to be honest I probably thought the PFR would very likely push with a 3 outer. /images/graemlins/grin.gif I had him on about AJ

[Ghazban]

My point is that you aren't deep enough to need to build the pot on the flop when its 3-way and the tilter is going to bet big on both the turn and river. The only thing minraising the flop does for you is force you to get all-in even if an ace (we can agree this is the scariest card that can hit the board, yes?) comes on the turn because the pot is so large relative to the stacks. You're copping out on making a decision later by bloating the pot now.

[mason55]

[ QUOTE ]
remember I have a very good hand but there are still very many cards I hate to see come off on the turn.


[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Im commited to the hand completely and dont want to scare off inferior holdings.

[/ QUOTE ]

These two are not compatible.

[zaxx19]

Its balanced by the fact I can make more money of him this way bc although he is tilting even tilting players prefer heavily to move all in rather tha call all in with ace hi or whatever.

Im not sure if you are getting that bc it ISNT A LOGICAL thought process.

[zaxx19]

[ QUOTE ]
These two are not compatible.


[/ QUOTE ]

If the pot is so large and stacks are so shallow that you cant force a bad decision to someone on a draw I submit they can be.

[Ghazban]

How do you make more money when he's going to be all-in by the river regardless of your minraise on the flop?

[mason55]

[ QUOTE ]
Its balanced by the fact I can make more money of him this way bc although he is tilting even tilting players prefer heavily to move all in rather tha call all in with ace hi or whatever.

Im not sure if you are getting that bc it ISNT A LOGICAL thought process.

[/ QUOTE ]

zaxx you keep contradicting yourself, saying you want to take it down on the flop by betting then saying you want to get him to go all in. i think you need to re read everything you've written in this thread and then go get some sleep.

[zaxx19]

If I simply push the flop he MAY not be.

[Ghazban]

[ QUOTE ]
If I simply push the flop he MAY not be.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. I was advocating a call instead of a minraise (not a push instead of a minraise).

[zaxx19]

Ghazban but this way I can (Try) and shut out the CO in case he has spades AND build a pot thats sure to get him all-in.

It serves dual purposes.

Like I said this is not a standard hand.

The minraise IS quite effective in making fish make bad decisions. I suspected he would push and I would call.

He called and then pushed a blank turn in some vain attempt to bluff. Like I said he was tiltsanity/.

[swolfe]

http://kimsal.com/rabbit_pancake.jpg

[Ghazban]

With these stacks, I don't think you can do all the things you're trying to do (get all-in vs. tilty, shut out CO if he's on a flush, let tilty be the one to push the money in). Your minraise didn't shut out CO (and if he's the calling station you've made him out to be, you should know that a minraise won't be enough to push him off a spade draw); all it did was pot commit all three of you now without putting the money in.

I don't necessarily think you played this horribly or anything; I just think there are better ways to do it. If you don't mind CO coming along, call the flop, turn, and river (assuming that puts everyone in). If you want him out, make a real raise on the flop and get it all in then. Tilters are more prone to call all-in than when they're not tilting because they take it as an insult to their manhood or something (the "you can't push me around just because I'm losing" mentality) so he probably wasn't going anywhere anyway.

[zaxx19]

I think some of my thoughts on the turn dealing with the CO are being confused with the flop thinking.

On the flop I make a bet which attempts to punish a Flush or overcard draw enough to make it incorrect to call.

By the time the turn comes the pot is huge there is really now way to force out any decent draw here so I simply call and take my chances with an A or K or spade hitting someone
while taking the extra money an underpair will give.

In retrospect a push might have been preferrable.

Like I said the guy was a calling station so Im not SO intent of driving him out if he has an underpair.

Does that make any sense?

[zaxx19]

Fwiw ....

The CO flashes 99

PFR Ace high(no spades)

So I take it down. But I was about 60% sure I was a goner after that flop cold-call by the CO.

Odds are B^tch.