I can not beat the 0.10/0.20 for the life of me

[celiboy]

I have been a reader of these forums for several months now and I have an understanding of position, pot odds, etc. I play at Absolute and do well in the single table sit and go's at the dollar buy-in as I place in the money 85% of the time as the level of play here is very poor. However whenever I play the .1/.2 ring games I basically get crushed. I do not have PokerTracker or other such software but every time I jump on with 3 bucks it is a lock that within an hour it's gone. On the stats tracker on Absolute on a given night I'll play 50 hands and one would expect to win 8 hands at the 6 max table. I will win something like 3 or 4. I tried playing tight and I've tried playing loose and nothing is working.

I am also not uneducated as I have a degree in finance and I should be crushing this game. I highly doubt players at that level have any clue about pot odds. My goal is to slowly move up the levels by building my bankroll rather then buying in at a certain level. At this rate I will lose my meager $25 "investment". Not sure if/how you can help....guess i'm just venting.

[GrandmaStabone]

I have never personally played.10/.20, but I've heard it is like "play money 1.5". My advice in bulding a bankroll would be to gather up 100 bucks, and start bonus whoring your heart out at.

Good Luck

[yellowjack]

I don't think a knowledge that comes with browsing the forums and a general understanding is sufficient for micro limit. I don't know how far you've gotten in Winning Low Limit Hold'em but keep reading! I recommend SSHE (Small Stakes Hold'em by Ed Miller) right after if you're ok with investing that.

[macdaddy991]

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I play at Absolute and do well in the single table sit and go's at the dollar buy-in as I place in the money 85% of the time as the level of play here is very poor.

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SNG's and tourneys are different especially at this level. you may be being too agressive on the limit tables.

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However whenever I play the .1/.2 ring games I basically get crushed. I do not have PokerTracker or other such software but every time I jump on with 3 bucks it is a lock that within an hour it's gone.

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You are losing 150 BBs? Something has to be wrong, granted variance is a possibility, but that number is massive. Post hands, look for potental leaks in your post flop play. Since you are used to SNG's, you might be being LAG since that tends to pay off in low limit SNG's

[Malachii]

A couple things I changed that really helped my winrate:

- Don't pay off needlessly by making crying calls and rationalize it by saying "But it's a big pot!" Those river bets add up. Anytime you have a reasonable chance of winning a big pot, call. Infact, anytime you have even a marginal (at best) chance of winning a big pot, you shuold call. But don't payoff when you've got virtually no chance of winning. That money will look better in your bankroll than theirs.

- Value bet. Before I started posting here, I had a huge case of Monsters Under the Bed Syndrome. Anytime anything even remotely scary came up on the river, I wouldn't bet. Needless to say, my hourly rate has enjoyed a healthy bounce since I started doing this.

Hope it helps.

[TripleH68]

I would guess that level to have seriously multi-way action every hand? If this is true you would need to make some major adjustments and advice on these forums probably would not fit those games very well.

The value of certain starting hands would go up, while others would go down. If you are not sure which hands I am talking about perhaps reading WLLH, HEPFAP, SSH, TOP is the place to be for a bit.

Best, HHH.

[Chimera]

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I jump on with 3 bucks it is a lock that within an hour it's gone.

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3 bucks is only 15 BBs. I play similar levels (usually .05/.10) and it's not at all uncommon to lose that much (or more) in an hour. However, you should also have many large wins. Maybe you've just been the victim of variance.

I agree with the others that these kind of games require a different strategy compared to the SNGs. Most of my profit in these games comes from winning a small number of huge pots. It's OK to only win 4 or 5 pots an hour, as long as a couple of 'em are monsters. The best way to achieve this is to play hands that can turn into monsters (such as pocket pairs and suited connectors). Then, when you flop a big draw, try to get as much money into the pot as possible, since your pot equity will be huge. The best part is you don't have to worry about getting paid off when you hit, since most of these players would rather get kicked in the groin than lay down a pair.

Of course, when you flop a hand like top pair, you should play it as aggressively as possible. You'll get chased by anybody and everybody with anything resembling a decent draw, so it's imperative to charge them as much as possible. That way, when your hand does hold up, you'll win enough to more than compensate for all the times that you get outdrawn.

Hope this helps.

[Walker]

Read, read some more, then apply. Beating those games is like taking candy from a baby. I started with "Winning Low Limit Hold'em", by Lee Jones, but if your smart you can probably go straight to "Small Stakes Hold'em" by Ed Miller.

Study hard, and good luck (not that your going to need it)!

[@bsolute_luck]

from your post, maybe you should just focus on SNGs. it is a different way of playing, but to play ring games for profit, you have to be willing to make an investment for the long term. $3 isn't going to cut it.

why not focus on SNGs? you don't HAVE to play ring games. if you do want to play ring games for profit:

1. read Small Stakes Hold 'em and Theory of Poker over and over.
2. get poker tracker (do this even if you only play SNGs). it is free for the first 1000 hands.
3. sell something on ebay, get $200, take the GRANNY bonus to Paradise for the max bonus of $100 and play .1/.2 if you want. you have the bankroll to learn at .25/.5 though.

[Winwood]

I have never played .1/.2 but I guess it is mainly made up of very poor players with no grasp of the game much further than the basic rules. So theoretically you should be crushing this game. A couple of things.

In such an incredibly loose (and probably aggressive) environment the swings are going to be crazy. I would not sit down with only 15BBs - make it 30 or even 50.

Value bet value bet value bet. If you think you have the best hand and get raised then raise right back. Of course, this is only going to increase you variance, but it will pay off in the long run. You will need to have the best hand almost every time, you're not going to be pushing many people off of pots for 2 reasons - 1) the pots will be big and 2) the fish simply will not fold. Its a "you can't bluff me" kind of attitude. And they're right, you can't, so don't even try.

Get Pokertracker. With a finance degree you should appreciate this - I have only had it for 3 months and I put the ROI around 300% so far. So if you intend to play more than 2 or 3 hours a week then its a must.

Read good books like SSH and HEP.

I'm really just reiterating others' points here, but anyway, good luck - you're probably just catching some bad cards. Play properly and you will win in the end.

[CourtesyFlush]

It's hard to give any advice without any hands to look at, but generally in these incredibly loose games you have to value bet like crazy, and go easy on the semi-bluffing. Have you read SSHE?

[trfogey]

Hi,
This is my first post on this forum and I would have to say I agree with you. I find that the very low limit tables, i.e. under and including .25/.50 seem far harder to beat than the slightly higher limits of .50/1 to 2/4.
I have poker tracker and I have read ssh and several other books and I am starting to really understand the game now.
I think the reason they are harder to beat, is that most people will call all the way with anything, because the stakes are so small. Which means that you are far more likely to get drawn out on by the river. This then makes me think. Right if these idiots can play 3 7 offsuit from UTG and hit 2 pair by the river, then I can. And the frustration boils over and generally ruins the game.
However, I find this never really happens on the 1/2 limit tables. PLayers are ( generally ) better and when you raise the flop with kk etc, they will not call your 2 bets and will correctly fold. I win constantly on poker room and empire at these limits. But I can almost guarantee that if I went back to Pacific( frustratingly loose ) and played on these micro limits, I would loose.
So my suggestion would also be to do some bonus whoring and play on the .5/1 tables. The difference in play is remarkable.

Anyone else find this?

[waynethetrain]

I find that I have been getting more consistent results on slightly tighter tables also. I think it's just a matter of variance. When everyone keeps calling with draws that they shouldn't be, they WILL crack a lot of hands that would have won on a tighter table. However, sometimes they won't and you win a much bigger pot than you wold have otherwsie. In the end, you are certainly better off with the latter. However, when you are on a bad run and they keep cracking you and you can't fill any of your super draws after building a monster pot, you will lose money quite rapidly for awhile.

[numeri]

I disagree. I've played the 0.01/0.02 on UB, and then 0.02/0.04 and 0.05/0.10 on Stars. They're all ridiculously soft. I think you just have to know when to push. I've learned to value bet the river a lot - many players call with anything. I also push my draws on the flop and get plenty of callers later on when I hit my hand. Also, look for those crazy players raising with anything. They're goldmines.

[Redd]

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I think the reason they are harder to beat, is that most people will call all the way with anything, because the stakes are so small.

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Right if these idiots can play 3 7 offsuit from UTG and hit 2 pair by the river, then I can.

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First off, welcome to the forums.

As for these quote: this is a very huge, very dangerous misconception about the nature of poker. You see someone post something like this on the general forum every once in a while, and they tear him/her a friggin' new one. We're a little more emphatic here in the micros /images/graemlins/wink.gif

This notion comes from the natural human psychological response in poker to remember the bad beats, and forget the many times that a losing player incorrectly called down and put money in your pocket.

Every time these guys call down to the river with crap, it's +EV for you. The other players making mistakes is what costs them money and makes you money in the long run.

Everyone who posts regularly on the forum will tell you that emulating the losing players is the best way to become a losing player. It's important to focus on the long term, and it's definitely -EV to call down with 73o.

I've played the nanolimited (Pacific $0.05/$.10 to be precise) for months now, and I can guarantee that these games are extremely soft, extremely beatable, and very swingey. If you know even the fundamentals of poker, you'll beat these tables in the long run.

[Aaron W.]

[ QUOTE ]
I have been a reader of these forums for several months now and I have an understanding of position, pot odds, etc.

...

I am also not uneducated as I have a degree in finance and I should be crushing this game. I highly doubt players at that level have any clue about pot odds.

[/ QUOTE ]

You've got a mistaken attitude about the nature of poker.

Understanding concepts and properly applying them are vastly different. I don't know if you're aware, but your "etc" includes a list of about another 10-15 concepts: semi-bluffing, equity, implied odds, reverse implied odds, value betting, hand reading, hidden outs, table selection, shorthanded play, inducing bluffs, and a few others which escape my mind at the moment (plus a few things which I don't even know I don't know). For just about everyone, it takes time and effort to learn how/when/why to play poker well. It's just like picking up any other new hobby.

Secondly, "educated" and "crushing the game" are different. Just like knowing about money and making money are different. Being well-educated shows that you likely have the appropriate mental categories to process poker, but you still need to develop them.

[SomethingClever]

Also, keep in mind that $3 is only 15 big bets at the .1/.2 level.

You should buy in for $10 when you play.

[SomethingClever]

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I find that the very low limit tables, i.e. under and including .25/.50 seem far harder to beat than the slightly higher limits of .50/1 to 2/4.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are very, very wrong.

Look back at this post in a few months... you'll have a good laugh.

[DavidC]

Hey man,

Keep your chin up, post some hands, and make sure that you never have less than 12bb in your stack when you're sitting at a table, like, NEVER. That means if you drop below $2.40 at the $0.10/$0.20 game, rebuy.

Buy some 2+2 books if you don't have them, and pokertracker is important to help quantify your progress and look for leaks.

--Dave.

[aveadams]

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...most of these players would rather get kicked in the groin than lay down a pair.

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Awesome!