Did I fail to protect my hand in this ex-large pot?

[MikeRand2000]

How do you protect the flop with 12.4 SB? Should I have just called rather than reraise?

Also, what do you do on the turn?

PokerStars 0.05/0.10 Hold'em (7 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is BB with K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
UTG calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, CO calls, Button calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, UTG calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, CO calls, Button calls.

Flop: (12.40 SB) 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(6 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, UTG calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises</font>, Button folds, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, UTG folds, MP1 folds, MP2 calls, CO calls.

Turn: (11.70 BB) 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
Hero checks, MP2 checks, <font color="#CC3333">CO bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, MP2 calls, CO calls.

River: (17.70 BB) 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 raises</font>, CO calls, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 21.60 BB

Results in white below: <font color="#FFFFFF">
Hero has Kh As (two pair, aces and fours).
MP2 has Jh Th (flush, ace high).
CO has Ac 8c (two pair, aces and fours).
Outcome: MP2 wins 21.60 BB. </font>

[istewart]

I would bet the turn.

And I'd add MP2 to your buddy list.

[GrandmaStabone]

[ QUOTE ]
I would bet the turn.

And I'd add MP2 to your buddy list.

[/ QUOTE ]

[Scratch]

Flop is perfect. MP2 makes a bad, bad call of your 3-bet, which is very nice.

Your turn play is questionable. After 3-betting the flop, you check? You _have_ to know that CO will bet when checked to, otherwise you'll miss bets AND give a free card. Luckily, he did bet, and you made it 2BB for MP2. Unfortunately, he now has the odds (&gt; 7-1) to call, so the check-raise was not likely to fold him. In addition, the whole idea of checking this turn after 3-betting the flop would smell suspicious to me if I were in CO's shoes.

Put MP2 in your buddy list.

[MikeRand2000]

Ok, so if my math is right I had 22.4SB back to MP2 on the flop after my 3-bet raise (including CO's pending call, which was a given). At best he was getting 11.2:1 on a call to a backdoor straight and flush, which at best would be like 1.5-2 outs (or &gt; 20:1). So I made him make an unprofitable call there. Hand protected.

By the time the river comes around, there are already 11.7 big bets in the pot. With 3 active players it'd be tough for me to get a 4-bet there. So technically what I missed was a value bet/rereraise, having only gotten a value check raise (all that seeing as I have to dodge only 10 outs, with the 8 hearts and 2 non-heart 8s being trouble, I have roughly 78% pot equity).

Ok, I feel a bit better now, though the turn check might be a bit bizarre.

[bigmac366]

i think you played it fine. mp2 made a huge mistake calling the flop 3-bet. which is what you want.

[GrunchCan]

Either just call the flop 2-bet and then CR the turn, or 3-bet the flop and then lead the turn. Don't try to do both.

I'm fine with the protection manuver, but your hand is so strong and the board so uncoordinated, I think there is less need for protection than value. So I'll ususally just start beating on the pot on the flop.

[slickterp]

agreed on the turn bet, i think you have to keep representing your strength here. MP2 made a series of bad calls, and got lucky. find him on the tables and you'll get your money back.

[GrunchCan]

[ QUOTE ]
agreed on the turn bet, i think you have to keep representing your strength here. MP2 made a series of bad calls, and got lucky. find him on the tables and you'll get your money back.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not so sure that MP2's play was as terrible as everyone is making it out to be. I'm not necesarrily suggesting he played correctly. I'm actually undecided. I think the decision is close - much closer certianly than everyone thinks.

[scotty34]

I agree with this. It's almost to the point where I cringe a little whenever I read the phrase "add him to your buddy list." So he caught a backdoor flush with the odds slightly against him. He called one bet on the flop getting 15.4-1 with two backdoor draws, for a total of maybe 3 outs. That is not unreasonable IMO. He can easily give it up on the turn if neither of his draws come through. So once it was two more to him on the flop, he may not have been getting the odds, but who is folding here? I probably wouldn't. A buddy list candadite is someone with 70% VP$IP and 2% PFR, not someone who makes marginal calls, and happens to hit on you once.

[istewart]

Well, if you add the backdoor straight you can semi-validate it if you give him some great implied odds. That's something I didn't see. Still, you have to consider that he may have to pay a ton of turn bets when a heart or a K/Q hits, which isn't fun.

He wasn't getting 15.4:1 when he called the raise and the 3-bet though. He was getting 10:1, wasn't closing the action, and had probably 2 outs total (a 22:1 shot).

[GrunchCan]

[ QUOTE ]
Well, if you add the backdoor straight you can semi-validate it if you give him some great implied odds. That's something I didn't see.

He wasn't getting 15.4:1 when he called the raise and the 3-bet though. He was getting 10:1.

[/ QUOTE ]

True, he was getting 10:1 on the second 2, but it wasn't cold, first of all. Second of all, the bets are about to double in size, making it much easier for villan to make up the implied odds he needs to be +EV.

The biggest problem I see with villan's call is the fact that he is exposing himself to a cap behind him. If he were closing the action, I would say that calling the 10:1 would be clearly correct.

I'm still undecided.

[jrz1972]

Backdoor flush = 1.5 outs. (Although it would only be the 3rd nut).

Two gap backdoor straight = 0.5 outs.

He's being offered ~10:1 when it's two cold back to him.

I don't see this as being a close decision. Granted, there are some implied odds coming up, but villian really needs about twice what he's being offered here.

[scotty34]

Yes, I acknowledged that calling the 3-bet was poor. Calling the initial bet was not that bad IMO. However, it is a fact that once you put one bet into the pot, you are far more likely to put one or two more, correct or not. His play was not right, but not terrible, and I think many of us would do the same, whether they will admit it or not.

[jrz1972]

[ QUOTE ]
However, it is a fact that once you put one bet into the pot, you are far more likely to put one or two more, correct or not. His play was not right, but not terrible,

[/ QUOTE ]

Tossing in two more bets just because you already tossed in one, even though the pot odds don't come close to justifying it, truly is terrible. This is a complete abandonment of basic poker fundamentals.

[ QUOTE ]
I think many of us would do the same, whether they will admit it or not

[/ QUOTE ]

This is definitely mistaken.

[scotty34]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
However, it is a fact that once you put one bet into the pot, you are far more likely to put one or two more, correct or not. His play was not right, but not terrible,

[/ QUOTE ]

Tossing in two more bets just because you already tossed in one, even though the pot odds don't come close to justifying it, truly is terrible. This is a complete abandonment of basic poker fundamentals.


[/ QUOTE ]

Again, I am not saying it is the proper thing to do, it is intrinsically wrong. Humans are not computers however, and we can't always do everything according to perfect logic and odds. This opponent has likely never read SSH or any other book, and probably doesn't realize that this call is wrong. He made a mistake, and probably didn't realize it was a mistake (he may not even have known his first call was 'correct'). I am not giving him credit for being a TAG who knows what he is doing. The point I was trying to make originally is just because someone makes a minor mistake, he is not a 'buddy list candidate.' Someone who is a buddy list candidate is a guy who you have played 50-100+ hands with, has a ridiculous VPIP, and plays very poorly, not someone who happens to suck out on you once.


[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think many of us would do the same, whether they will admit it or not

[/ QUOTE ]





This is definitely mistaken.

[/ QUOTE ]

OK, perhaps I am not at the level yet where I can calculate odds perfectly, and make my decisions based on that everytime. It is a fact that once you put a bet into the pot, you are far more prone to put in two. It is something I have to work on, I know that. Even 2+2'ers make mistakes though, none of us are perfect.