Standard Play on Ragged Flop?

[DavidC]

Curious what you guys think about this play...

BB is TPP, UTG is LPP, the guy in the middle is SLAP.

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Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 9/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif.
UTG calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP1 calls, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, Hero calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, BB checks.

Flop: (4.50 SB) 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 7/images/graemlins/club.gif, 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
BB checks, UTG checks, MP1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">BB raises</font>, UTG folds, MP1 folds, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 3.75 BB

[milesdyson]

Meh, you likely have all 6 overcard outs + you have a BDFD.

I probably raise this preflop FWIW.

[cold_cash]

Do you think everyone will fold often enough to make it profitable?

This board gives a lot of straight draws to calling station limpers, so I'd probably just check this one through and hope to catch.

I don't think it's necessarily awful, but I wouldn't get into the habit of doing it every time. Stealing now and then is fine, I just don't think this is a great spot for it.

[thesharpie]

The trouble with a low flop when trying to get a free card on the turn is if a higher card comes and it pairs one of the others they're likely to bet out. If there was a queen on the flop you'd be more likely to get a free card IMO. Also it's pretty connected so you'll have to worry about more lower cards on the turn, and if someone gets a straight they probably will just bet out.

I think I just check the flop as the pot is small.

[Isura]

Betting here is more for value (if you had stronger overcards) since you're getting called by all kinds of overcards like QTo here.

[jrbick]

PF -- Raise... only 2 limpers

F -- Kinda hard to protect from the BB aside from leading out. I don't mind it especially since you noted that BB is TPP. At least call the raise though; you've got 7.5 good outs (3 9s, 3 Ks, 1.5 BDFD) leaving you in need of 5.3:1 to call. Pot's laying you 6.5:1 so clear call to BB's raise. Consider BB protecting a weaker made hand or draw on this flop as well.

[Aaron W.]

[ QUOTE ]
Curious what you guys think about this play...

BB is TPP, UTG is LPP, the guy in the middle is SLAP.

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Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 9/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif.
UTG calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP1 calls, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, Hero calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, BB checks.

Flop: (4.50 SB) 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 7/images/graemlins/club.gif, 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
BB checks, UTG checks, MP1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">BB raises</font>, UTG folds, MP1 folds, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 3.75 BB

[/ QUOTE ]

If your opposition is weak, I like this more -- Having aggressive players out there makes this iffy. Also, I wouldn't make this a "standard" play, but a "mix it up" play.

[Shillx]

I don't really like folding to the flop raise. Against an unknown I would never do it because I might still have the best hand. It appears in this case that you don't but this might that time to make a "loose call" to prevent people from check/raising you on the flop in the future.

Brad

[DavidC]

[ QUOTE ]
Meh, you likely have all 6 overcard outs + you have a BDFD.

I probably raise this preflop FWIW.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree that it's probably a raising hand PF.

I assume that you're saying that I should call and then fold the turn unimproved, then? Makes sense if you count the overcards as full outs (due to implied odds).

--Dave.

[ArturiusX]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't really like folding to the flop raise. Against an unknown I would never do it because I might still have the best hand. It appears in this case that you don't but this might that time to make a "loose call" to prevent people from check/raising you on the flop in the future.

Brad

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree that if you're going to bet out the flop, you should be prepared to call a check-raise.

But I probably wouldn't bet this out, unless I was pretty sure I'd steal.

[@bsolute_luck]

i can understand raising PRF, but checking, i don't think, is horrible. it depends on table condition and confidence in your postflop play. seeing as you have position and a passive table, i'd raise.

since you have position, the flop raise is good considering you have 7.5 outs. the check/raise, i'd have to call, but you're probably up against a set, maybe 2 pair or the unlikely straight. he could be playing anything from BB.

unless it's a club, i'm folding the turn.

[DavidC]

My reply to the whole thread (up to entity's post):
-----------------------------

PF: I don't know that I have the best hand here, because the SLAP could have KQ/KJ or a suited ace. I'd have to rely heavily on outplaying them on the flop, which it's clear that I didn't do.

Flop: I stand by this bet, but you guys are right that it's not a standard play (meaning I shouldn't do it every time). I should have called the raise.

I don't necessarily have to get everyone to fold. Getting the pot HU will be enough, esp. if I get the free river card. If I'm called heads-up and the turn is an ace, I would probably bet again (ColdCash).

The thing that made me fold to the flop raise was the fact that my opponent was passive. This could be too great a fold with a small sample size and decent pot odds (Shillx).

Oddly enough, if I'd raised PF I couldn't bluff at this pot, since their odds would be better to call me.

Also, I have a bit of a fear of TPP opponents who checkraise me, more than their LPP counterparts, because I know those guys fear every hand possible, so he's got to have something good to be checkraising.

On a side-note: Miles, after seeing your avatar and reading your location, I have a strange feeling that you'd get along very well with this fellow (http://snaxor.com/snaxor/flash/ninja/ninja.htm).

[DavidC]

A few more things:

Given that BB was TPP I should have been more inclined to raise this preflop. Best to make it harder for him to get a hand to checkraise me with, right? /images/graemlins/smile.gif

I figure if the turn is a K or a 9, I can safely call a turn bet, since I may have a 9 outs. Obviously I'm calling if a flush card hits too.