Top Pair Medium Kicker

[Rambino]

I don't feel comfortable with this hand. Feel like I overstayed, but there wasn't much aggression. Table is generally classic PP loose/passive. Some of the players have fishy tendencies, others no read.

Thoughts?


Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is CO with 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif, Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+1 calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP2 calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (5 SB) Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 6/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, UTG+1 checks, MP2 checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, SB folds, BB calls, UTG+1 calls, MP2 calls.

Turn: (4.50 BB) A/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 bets</font>, MP2 calls, Hero calls, BB calls.

Here I assume I am up against a paired ace, but I figure me for 6 outs, so I call.

River: (8.50 BB) 7/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
BB checks, UTG+1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 bets</font>, Hero folds, BB calls, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 3-bets</font>, BB calls, UTG+1 calls.

Final Pot: 17.50 BB

[numeri]

I wouldn't fold the turn - UTG+1 could have just picked up a flush draw - but I like the fold on the river. Too many people yet to call behind you, and you get beat too many ways.

[@bsolute_luck]

your outs plus implied pot odds, i think the turn can be called. fold river. played right.

[aK13]

I fold this preflop, but of course, there's going to be plenty of people who will argue that you should limp, so this point is moot.

Anyways, I would have called on the river for one bet, but the 3bet would definitely make me fold. Pot is reasonably sized i think to call for one bet, ala Ed Miller.

[Firefly]

PF-meh.
Flop-yup
Turn- YOu have 5 outs, if the bettor has an ace, which he most likely does because he's probally passivle. Your odds of making 2 pair on the river are about 8:1, you aren't getting 8:1, you're getting 7:1, now and 8:1 if BB comes along, so the call is okay, purely by pot odds.
River-Good fold

[elbuddha]

Not sure how you figure 6 outs on the turn. 2 Q's (1 tainted), 3 9's (1 tainted). So 5 at best, discounted to ~4. If you are behind you don't have odds to call. The bet when the A hits the board doesn't necessarily mean he has an A, but anything else he's betting probably isn't good for you either. Factor in that he already has one caller that you aren't closing the action. I don't think that the pot size is worth fighting for here. I'd get away from it right there on the turn.

[Rambino]

Do I need to discount the flush cards fully on a rainbow flop? Perhaps six outs is a little aggressive, but it would seem that the flush likelihood is lower with the runner-runner. Hmm.

As to PF - I used to fold this hand, but have recently added it as a LP limp at passive tables. Not sure if I like it or not, partially because of hands like this. We'll check PT in a few weeks... /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[J.DP]

What do people think of raising this preflop?

Reasons:

- More likely to get the button.
- Free card on unfavourable flops.

Our equity also probably isn't so bad against typical crap loose players call with.

Maybe I'm LAG but I'm pretty sure folding here is bad.

[numeri]

[ QUOTE ]
Do I need to discount the flush cards fully on a rainbow flop? Perhaps six outs is a little aggressive, but it would seem that the flush likelihood is lower with the runner-runner. Hmm.

[/ QUOTE ]
It should be discounted a bit, but probably not completely ignored. That said, you start with 5 complete outs. You've already paired one of your hole cards.

[Saint_D]

raise the turn. The pot is reasonably large at this point. If it was smaller, this would be a good fold.

UTG+1 may be raising the scare card or a flush draw (they have /images/graemlins/club.gifs). There is a chance you will take the pot right away. You may fold flush draws or a stronger hand behind you.

Defend your weaker hands.

[numeri]

[ QUOTE ]
What do people think of raising this preflop?

[/ QUOTE ]
I definitely play this, but I'm not willing to pay 2 bets. I don't think it's worth it with 2 limpers already in.

[SteveL91]

I agree with elbuddha about folding the turn. Mostly, I wanted to address the pf-limp: It's fine. In fact, if I think the blinds are tight enough and the limpers bad enough, I'd raise with Q9s.

[@bsolute_luck]

the outs may not count, but i have a bad habit of not wanting to fold just because an A shows up for 1 bet /images/graemlins/shocked.gif

definitely limp CO with Q9s in a loose/passive table. the straight and flush possibilities make it good to play. it takes some study and practice to play it well postflop (which i'm still working on).

[J.DP]

I think the turn call is too loose. Your hand is probably worth about 4 outs here after you discount outs for the flush tainted cards and the possibility of villian aready having two pair.

You're getting 6.5-1 on the turn not closing the action, so I think a fold is best.

[SteveL91]

[ QUOTE ]
raise the turn. The pot is reasonably large at this point. If it was smaller, this would be a good fold.

UTG+1 may be raising the scare card or a flush draw (they have /images/graemlins/club.gifs). There is a chance you will take the pot right away. You may fold flush draws or a stronger hand behind you.

Defend your weaker hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you're next to act after the turn bettor, I could potentially see the merit in raising what may still be the best hand, while it's doubtful, it is possible. However, given the fact that MP2 called the bet means your raise won't do anything good for you. The pot isn't, in my opinion, laying odds to justify the call and you're not pushing out the potential flush and straight draws.

[imported_leader]

[ QUOTE ]

- Free card on unfavourable flops.

[/ QUOTE ]

Raising PF for a free card hmmm...interesting

[Womble]

The free card is not free. By raising the flop you are adding 1 extra SB which it would cost to call a flop bet.

[Rockfish]

I've started doing just that although I'm more likely to raise pre-flop against two limpers with K9s, than Q9s, but I've done it. You can frequently get that oh-so-important button (didn't appreciate this formerly, now I do) and get rid of at least the SB if not BB as well, you are essentially taking control of the hand (at a passive table) and sometimes you can steal with nothing on the flop or the turn if it doesn't look like anyone wants to play after the flop.

Folding pre-flop is not outrageously bad, if there are aggressive players behind you or in the blinds, but you may be giving up some moderately good opportunities here if you fold this every time.

Having said all that, and having raised pre-flop and bet the flop, Hero might be in a position where the turn and the river play differently.

[@bsolute_luck]

[ QUOTE ]
The free card is not free. By raising the flop you are adding 1 extra SB which it would cost to call a flop bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

but when that small price increases by 6 people (or however many limpers), you now have odds to call that bet if the hand plays correctly. it is a small price to pay for the chance to win big later. added value is the possibility of folding the button (gaining better position) and folding the blinds (buying possible outs).

[jaxUp]

[ QUOTE ]
raise the turn. The pot is reasonably large at this point. If it was smaller, this would be a good fold.

UTG+1 may be raising the scare card or a flush draw (they have /images/graemlins/club.gifs). There is a chance you will take the pot right away. You may fold flush draws or a stronger hand behind you.

Defend your weaker hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think that just about everything in this reply is ill-advised. A flush draw won't fold, an A won't fold, and we're not ahead here often enough to make this a raise for value.

[car ramrod]

pf, ok
flop I like the bet, I think your ahead here, so value bet.
Turn sucks, with that many callers, I'd say an A is out there. But you have outs to see the river.
River is really bad, good fold.

[Saint_D]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
raise the turn. The pot is reasonably large at this point. If it was smaller, this would be a good fold.

UTG+1 may be raising the scare card or a flush draw (they have s). There is a chance you will take the pot right away. You may fold flush draws or a stronger hand behind you.

Defend your weaker hands.


[/ QUOTE ]

I think that just about everything in this reply is ill-advised. A flush draw won't fold, an A won't fold, and we're not ahead here often enough to make this a raise for value.


[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for considering my idea and disaproving with some thought.

I think you are wrong about the flush draw not folding sometimes. Sure, YOU won't fold it. But I used to fold my flush draws way too often. I think a lot of fish make this mistake.

I think you are correct about the Ace. However, I don't think the raiser even has the ace all the time. You would need a read on them. If they are super tight, a raise might fold them. Super loose and you might still have the best hand.

Rather than saying you might fold stronger hands behind you, I should have said you might fold hands that would have gone on to river you.

That said. I think I don't raise. The call is getting proper odds with 6 outs, so call and fold if you miss.

-D

[Duerig]

I only see 5 outs for you on the turn and you're getting about 5:1 (maybe 6:1 with implied odds). I think I would fold the turn. But then, I tend to be too weak.

[Greg J]

[ QUOTE ]
The free card is not free.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah, freedom isn't free you commie motherfuckers!

Raising pf here is not the worst play in the world, but I prefer a limp. I would HATE it if a blind decided to 3 bet. On the other hand, showing this down after raising pf might be good for metagame considerations... which are not as big a deal at .5/1. I think this is a clear limp.