Stud 8b noob - AK8s

[Beavis68]

I was having an argument with a friend about this hand is a stud8b tourney.

A /images/graemlins/diamond.gif K /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 8 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

How strong is this hand? Is it playable at all?

He had 5 limpers in ahead of him, I thought his call was marginally ok, since there were 7 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif low cards that could give him a decent hand, but that is about all I would want to see on 4th. And that still only gives you 3 to the low.

[TheShootah]

I think with 5 limpers I would definitely take a card off.

[Beavis68]

which brings up the really important question, what do you want to see on 4th street? How do you proceed?

[greenage]

In Ray Zee’s book “High-Low-Split Poker, Seven-Card-Stud and Omaha Eight or Better for Advanced Players” he says either a) the pot must be multiway with several hands that look like there going high or b) you must have two low cards. In addition, your flush cards need to be very live (generally not more than one out) and you want to get in cheaply.

You’d also like one of the low cards in the door to disguise as a low hand.

Edit: I'd play it as long as my flush cards are live.

[greenage]

2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif would be nice.

[Andy B]

I'm not a tournament player, but with five people in, I call every time, even if it's a full bet, and probably if it's two bets. Any diamond on fourth street would be just fine. If I caught an Ace or a King and I thought it was the best high hand, I would play on, probably raising if I got the chance, unless there were a few scary low boards out. A wheel card might be enough to make me see fifth street, although it would depend some on what I was up against. Obviously, it would be best to catch a small diamond, but there are plenty of ways to hit a hand like this.

[mscags]

I think this hand is definitely worth at least a call. On fourth I'm looking for any diamond, especially a baby. If I catch a baby /images/graemlins/diamond.gif on fourth I'm probably going to see it out to the end unless my diamonds dry up real fast and a few boards get real scary

[Hauser_III]

I think if the door card was the 7 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif, rather than the 8 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif, I'd definitely take a card off with 5 limpers ahead of me (assuming most look like they're going high). But with an 8 up as a door card, if the hand misses the flush draw and starts filling in as a low, you're working at the disadvantage of drawing to an 8 low at a time when everybody else, because your 8 is up, knows that you have a draw to only an 8. With an 8 up, you're either going to have to hit a diamond on 4th to continue, or hit a low card while everybody else going low bricks. And even people that brick on 4th, but started with better low hands, like 236, are ahead of the low draw and could be correct to stay in, depending on the action. So, all in all, I'd fold the three-flush with an 8 as the doorcard, unless all of the limpers were going high.

[SuitedBaby]

With 5 limpers in it doesn't sound as if you are likely to get raised. The 8 in the door is in my mind the worst card of the three. There are a max of 6 low diamond cards out but what about other diamonds? Also how about stack sizes, can he afford to gamble? You're big cards loose some power here 6-way but of course that isn't why you are calling.

All-in-all I'd almost certainly play on 3rd but dump it fast if things went sour since I usually can't afford to gamble as much in a tourney. On a side note I do like the King instead of say a 9 or T since I have won and lost many hands with flush over flush.

[Andy B]

Change the <font color="red">8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif </font> to the <font color="red">9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif</font>, and you've still got three Aces, three Kings, and ten diamonds to make yourself a decent hand on fourth street. I'm seeing fourth street with this hand if the action isn't too heavy.

[Ray Zee]

andy is so right on this one here. 5 players is alot of money ahead of you in there. even playing for half isnt bad. as the hand develops you may find yourself in a scoop position easily.
i find it hard to believe 5 limpers in a tourny. it shows how bad some must play. and how easy it is to make money nowadays at poker.

[Hauser_III]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm seeing fourth street with this hand if the action isn't too heavy.

[/ QUOTE ]

Okay, Andy, I think you and Ray may have convinced me that I may be just a tad too tight in my analysis of this hand, and that it's worth coming along for a limp with 5 limpers in front. But at what point do you say it's not worth coming in? 4 limpers ahead, and the 5th player completes? 5 limpers ahead, you limp, and the last player to act completes? The first one, I'd fold (there I go, being too in my starting requirements again), but the second one, if everybody who limped calls the completion and I'm the last one to act, I'd say it's a call, as there's just too much money in the pot to abandon it on third. So what, in your mind, would be the minimum action that's too heavy for this hand to see fourth?

[vulturesrow]

[ QUOTE ]
andy is so right on this one here. 5 players is alot of money ahead of you in there. even playing for half isnt bad. as the hand develops you may find yourself in a scoop position easily.
i find it hard to believe 5 limpers in a tourny. it shows how bad some must play. and how easy it is to make money nowadays at poker.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ray,

The online site that I play my stud games at right now routinely have 4 limpers on 3rd street. I can say that 90% of the time I am on the only person in the game that raises or completes on 3rd. Now granted it is only 1/2 limit so there are a lot of fish but from reading other posts on here, it would seem even the higher stakes are pretty soft too. But all the limpers and weak play on 4th street has allowed me to back into several scoop hands that if I were in a tougher game I would have never seen 5th street or maybe even 4th street on.

[Andy B]

The examples you cite are still easy calls, in my opinion, and folding in the second scenario would be ridiculous. If there were two raisers and no callers, my enthusiasm would be diminished. Actually, in a tournament, depending on the exact situation, I might not want to play for two bets, especially if I'm starting to get short-stacked. If it's early and there are this many people in, though, I'll play for two bets.